Natural base damage equation[]
[Skill * 0.11 + 3] is a more accurate equation than [Skill / 10 + 3], if not the most accurate. --JKL 05:03, 18 March 2007 (EDT)
Do you have links to tests that back this up? Particularly ones at breakpoints other than 290/292 --Aurikasura 05:12, 18 March 2007 (EDT)
I haven't searched for the source of the '0.11' equation but I have been keeping track of some of my max crits when I was leveling monk. Here are some of the numbers of a barehanded character.
skill max crit 172 87 178 90 200 99 210 102 217 102 218 102 222 105 227 105 229 108 241 111 246 114 251 114 256 117 257 117 261 117 266 120 267 120 271 120 275 123
[Skill / 10 + 3] doesn't match these numbers at all but [Skill * 0.11] + 3 does.
In my opinion, 0.11 is such a weird number, I don't think that's the actual equation SE is using. -- JKL 21:23, 21 March 2007 (EDT)
- Actually (skill / 10 + 3) does match up almost perfectly if you give the base H2H damage a weapon rank. So in finding out which is the right equation, you also find out whether base H2H damage has weapon rank. --Beaux 08:49, 13 July 2007 (CDT)
Side note: 0.11 is a fraction that usually indicates 1/9 (which is 0.1111111~). When skill is so often divisible by 3, this makes it so that your damage goes up approximately every 3 levels or so in the beginning, and even more so later on when you start boosting up by 5 skill each level. So perhaps the real equation is (Skill / 9) +3? I have no evidence to back this up other than number theory. --Chrisjander 23:05, 21 March 2007 (EDT)
- I have tested the difference between (skill * 0.11 + 3) and (skill / 9 + 3) and found *0.11 is still more accurate. --Beaux 08:49, 13 July 2007 (CDT)
- Strangely, it's not 28/256 either. I think it might actually be .11, as weird as it is. --Beaux 09:59, 13 July 2007 (CDT)
I don't see what's weird about 1/9th. Plenty of stuff is in threes. --◄Chrisjander► t/ c 10:01, 13 July 2007 (CDT)
- I was referring to JKL's comment "0.11 is such a weird number". And I think 0.11 is more weird than 1/9th. I wouldn't think it was so weird if it were 1/9th. --Beaux 12:51, 13 July 2007 (CDT)
It likely is 1/9th. 1/9 as a decimal is 0.111111111~. --◄Chrisjander► t/ c 12:53, 13 July 2007 (CDT)
- As I said, I tested the difference between the equation with 0.11 and the equation with 1/9. 0.11 is more accurate. 1/9 didn't work out in many instances. --Beaux 13:30, 13 July 2007 (CDT)
Conflicting Edits[]
Can someone please shed some light and discussion on these revisions to this paragraph?
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Category:Hand-to-Hand?title=Category:Hand-to-Hand&diff=next&oldid=291578
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Category:Hand-to-Hand?title=Category:Hand-to-Hand&diff=next&oldid=296767
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Category:Hand-to-Hand?title=Category:Hand-to-Hand&diff=next&oldid=297742
We do not need this developing into an edit war. --User:Charitwo/Sig 20:07, 19 July 2007 (CDT)
- I did some testing on hand-to-hand weapon rank with the wrong base damage equation. Then JKL helped me realize it. Sorry, there're no edit wars here for you to participate in. :P --Beaux 21:54, 19 July 2007 (CDT)
- As long as both of you are in agreement, then it's good. --User:Charitwo/Sig 11:34, 20 July 2007 (CDT)
Latest revision This lack of discussion isn't nice, can either of you justify this edit, obviously being a mage my knowledge of melee aspects is limited. --User:Charitwo/Sig 06:18, 28 July 2007 (CDT)
- For now, talk page clearly outlines 0.11. --User:Charitwo/Sig 06:23, 28 July 2007 (CDT)
DPS/TP info on Hand-to-hand weapons[]
Would anyone be opposed to using something like User:Dragonspight/Sandbox to list the DPS and TPH information on HTH weapon pages? Just not having it or stating it "depends on [something here]" isn't working in my opinion. Anyone want me to just leave the pages as they are? to change the structure of the table on my sandbox? Introduce a new way to structure it? D:--Dragonspight 03:54, 25 July 2007 (CDT)
- The Martial Arts level cannot tell you the DPS. It can only tell you the TP per hit. For the DPS you have to know both the H2H skill and the martial arts level. --Beaux 08:24, 25 July 2007 (CDT)
- That's why I made it a +DPS system, but I'm trying to work out a new way, since this would only work on tropical punches.
- I hate Hand-to-Hand so much.--Dragonspight 18:29, 25 July 2007 (CDT)
- I could do a system where it gives a rough DPS, or do a divided-by-x-plus-y system ww. God how I hate hand-to-hand. --Dragonspight 18:37, 25 July 2007 (CDT)
Could we write a calculator script or something? or at least a link to a page that HAS a large number of DPS calculations for various h2h skills (like capped skill at the level it can be worn for pup and mnk, then lvl 75, then lvl 75 w/ max merits). Doesn't have to cover every last possibility, just something more than what we have now. --Masse 14:51, 29 July 2007 (CDT)
- I think that's a good idea if someone knows how to write such a script. --Beaux 15:28, 29 July 2007 (CDT)
The correct number in the formula is still H2H/10, not H2H*0.11. I am not sure where the 0.11 was derived, but even in the examples mentioned above (in the box at the start) for the no-weapon case, H2H/10 works correctly but H2H*0.11 doesn't.
Not only but even in the most common case, for max H2H with merits and destroyers, the H2H*0.11 doesn't predict the number every monk is used to see, 189 max criticals with destroyers, it predicts an erroneous 198 critical.
Maybe the max criticals were computed incorrectly? Here are a couple of examples worked out:
H2H 275, no weapon: Max critical= (int(275/10+3+0)+int(int(275/10+3+0)/9)+8)*3=(30+11)*3=123
where int(275/10+3+0)=30 is the weapon rating, int(int(275/10+3+0)/9)+8) is the max fSTR for it, and 3 is the max pDIF for a critical hit.
Note that if you used H2H*0.11 you would get the wrong number:
H2H 275, no weapon: Max critical= (int(275*0.11+3+0)+int(int(275*0.11+3+0)/9)+8)*3=(33+11)*3=132
same for 189 max criticals with destroyers:
H2H 276+16=292, destroyers(+18): (pDIFmax capped at 3, fSTR capped at (50/9+8)=13, and (50+13)*3=189, using H2H/10 since
(int(292/10+3+18)+int(int(289/10+3+18)/9)+8)*3=(50+13)*3=189
I mentioned this problem also in the monk forum (where I show a screenshot of the 189 criticals for example): http://forums.ffxiclopedia.org/viewtopic.php?p=61786#61786
--Genome 08:00, 2 August 2007 (CDT)
- Try your calculations with JKL's example of 241 skill and max crit of 111.
- Also read my comment right below that. (08:49, 13 July 2007 (CDT))
- Also be careful what section you post under. You posted in the wrong section. --Beaux 11:38, 2 August 2007 (CDT)
!!!HERE'S THE MATH!!!
Okies after reading way to many forums and doing the math i have figured out the exact DPS formula for H2H.
Step #1 Your Skill (i.e. 276 w/o Merits) x .11 = 30.36. You then have to round down to nearest whole number which is 30.
Step #2 Add to you "Base Damage" to "Weapon Damage" i.e. (30+23):{23 i am using Spharai} = 53 "Total Damage"
Step #3 Now Multiply this number x2: Why? because that base damage is per only one hand not both hits. Which = 106
Step #4 Now you add your what i assume is a "Natural Base" +6. So you are left with a "Weapon Damage" of 112
Step #5 Now that we have this its simple! Just take "Weapon Damage" and multiply it by 60: (60x112) = 6720
Step #6 Now to calculate your delay, which is simple if you are 75 Mnk: 300+ "Weapon Delay" (Using Spharai we get 386)
Step #7 And the final results is ("Weapon Damage"x60)/ "Weapon Delay" : 6720/386 = 17.409 (Total Dps)
Notes: DPS @ 276 H2H skill for end game weapons. This does not include traits!
(Hades Sainti +1 = 17.879) (Hades Sainti = 17.435) (Destoryers = 17.586) (Shenlong's Baghnakhs = 18.461 : Made of all Win)
Anyhow that's it, your base is always 30 at 276 H2H skill. Will be 32 @ H2H 292 8/8 Merits. And will still be 32 since Base always rounds down with Faith Torque. But Skill adds both attack and accuracy remember! (*^.^*)
Edit War[]
Since nobody can continue to play nice and discuss changes before making them, this is now protected a second time for edit warring. --User:Charitwo/Sig 11:46, 2 August 2007 (CDT)
- I don't see any occasion of people making changes without discussing. What are you talking about? --Beaux 12:18, 2 August 2007 (CDT)
When he made the change without giving people a chance to discuss what he posted here first, and you reverting the change. That's an edit war, especially when there is still an ongoing discussion. --User:Charitwo/Sig 18:54, 2 August 2007 (CDT)
Charitwo, the editing was discussed first here, it's not an editing war. The concern is still valid, as it is the entry appears incorrect, and it should be made editable again until it's resolved, not just reverted to an older version that has information that appears incorrect.
The main concern also is that it is not clear how the max criticals are made to match the data when using 0.11
Beaux, I tried to work out the example you mentioned, and you are right it doesn't match for /10 but it also doesn't match with 0.11, or can you show how you compute max criticals to make it match? I have, using H2H/10:
H2H 241, no weapon: Max critical= (int(275/10+3+0)+int(int(241/10+3+0)/9)+8)*3=(27+11)*3=114
and using 0.11 I get
H2H 241, no weapon: Max critical= (int(241*0.11+3+0)+int(int(241*0.11+3+0)/9)+8)*3=(29+11)*3=120
which is even more wrong. Can you or JKL show how you would you get 114 from 241 H2H and no weapon, and also get 189 from 292 and +18 weapon?
--Genome 13:34, 2 August 2007 (CDT)
As weird as it sounds, fSTR only uses the D of the weapon to calculate the Weapon Rank, not touching H2H skill at all. This can be noticed if you test the max crits with a +5 D and a +6 D H2H weapon. Regardless of your skill level, the max fSTR will jump 2 points instead of 1 when you switch from +5 D to +6 D.
I read the forum thread and I must admit I'm as skeptical as you are about other people's work.--JKL 14:46, 2 August 2007 (CDT)
EDIT: Where I said 'max fSTR', it should have been 'max D' (including fSTR).--JKL 16:43, 2 August 2007 (CDT)
Ah I see what you mean now, thanks. I will do the test with a +5 and +6 weapon too, but yes I see that it works for even the 189 case if you change weapon rank to 2 instead of 5 and fSTR accordingly to 2+8=10 instead of 5+8=13:
(int(292*0.11+3+18)+int(int(3+18)/9)+8)*3=(53+10)*3=189
It's shifting some damage to the weapon rating and away from the rank and fSTR for H2H, and also would mean that H2H is even more of an exception compared to other weapons, but if the +5 and +6 weapon really is predicted accurately only by assuming this 0.11 and low weapon rank, that will be proof enough.
If that is the case I also understand what you guys meant with the correction in the weapon rank entry, but I don't think the way it was worded was clear enough, maybe you can think of a more detailed and clear way to explain that, just saying "base hand to hand has no rank" wasn't very clear, and people might even compute fSTR max without looking at the weapon rank page at all but only the fSTR page.
Also JKL do you have some screenshots with the max crit damage with +5 and +6 at 75 that you can link here for easier reference?
--Genome 15:22, 2 August 2007 (CDT)
Try using 1/9 instead of 0.11 and see how it works out. --◄Chrisjander► t/ c 16:09, 2 August 2007 (CDT)
- An easy place to find the difference between 1/9 and 0.11 is with 299 h2h skill. floor(299/9) gives a different result from floor(299*0.11) --Beaux 17:51, 2 August 2007 (CDT)
I probably don't have screenshots. As I was leveling monk, I collected the data using different weapons and kept it in an Excel file.--JKL 15:50, 2 August 2007 (CDT)
I see. Ok I will run some test tonight. The expected results are different so it will be a good test and it's easy because anybody can do it at 75:
using D+5 weapon
(int(292*0.11+3+5)+int(int(3+5)/9)+8)*3=(40+0+8)*3 = 144 (int(292/9+3+5)+int(int(3+5)/9)+8)*3=(40+0+8)*3 = 144 (int(292/10+3+5)+int(int(292/10+3+5)/9)+8)*3=(37+4+8)*3=147
using D+6 weapon
(int(292*0.11+3+6)+int(int(3+6)/9)+8)*3=(41+1+8)*3=150 (int(292/9+3+6)+int(int(3+6)/9)+8)*3=(41+1+8)*3=150 (int(292/10+3+6)+int(int(292/10+3+5)/9)+8)*3=(38+4+8)*3=150
So when switching weapon I would expect to see a difference of 144 to 150 if using 0.11 was correct and fSTRmax was computed differently, and a difference from 147 to 150 if the fSTRmax was computed normally and it was H2H/10. Chrisjander, as you can see I included the H2H/9 but the only way to see that difference is when H2H changes. However we now adding faith torque doesn't change your max H2H damage, whereas using H2H/9 you would get a different value from 292 to 299, since 292/9=32 and 299/9=33, so unless some other change happens to terms like fSTRmax to compensate for this, the only real question is between H2H/10 and H2H*0.11
--Genome 17:14, 2 August 2007 (CDT)
- I agree that "base hand to hand has no rank" probably isn't the clearest way to say that. I wasn't sure of a better way. --Beaux 17:55, 2 August 2007 (CDT)
Just because you post something here, then immediately change the article, doesn't make it not an edit war. You didn't give any of the people here, or anyone a chance to discuss it. When there there is still clearly an on-going discussion. You should have posted what you tested, then let people discuss it before you made the changes. When you guys can come to an agreement, again, we'll make changes if needed. --User:Charitwo/Sig 18:54, 2 August 2007 (CDT)
So I did the test described above and it shows that in fact the studioGobli way is slightly inaccurate for H2H and instead as JKL and Beaux mentioned fSTR caps earlier for H2H (at 10 instead of 13 with weapon rank computed based only on the + damage and not H2H too) and H2H for weapon damage ranking is multiplied by 0.11 and not divided by 10.
Here are screenshots from the tests, again the critical point is that the max critical for a D+5 weapon (here bastokan knuckles) should give 147 max critical but it only goes to 144 (out of so many criticals the 10 highest criticals I saw were 144). To confirm the D+6 weapon case (boreas) is predicted to be 150 damage by both equations and in fact I get that as the highest and very common critical value:
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a122/GenomeFFXI/Jul07/d5maxcrit144.jpg http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a122/GenomeFFXI/Jul07/d6maxcrit150.jpg
So I would say yes, definitely the 0.11 etc should remain as it is correct, but I think we need to explain better that weapon rank and thus fSTR max is computed differently for H2H, so both the weapon rank and STR-VIT function difference page need to be more clear, maybe just by giving an example for the destroyers case at 75, just a simple one with all the numbers worked out like the ones above, to avoid any possible confusion, since it is different than all other weapons case and the original studiogobli page (just like there is an example for the Juggernaut as rank5, we can add Destroyers is a rank 2 weapon).
We might also want to mention to be careful about using things like damage calculators since those assume all weapons work the same and unless you can specify that you are using H2H you would get wrong values by using for example a weapon damage rating of 53 (correct based on this) for destroyers instead of 50 (still a better approximation if you were using the rest of the damage equations assuming a non-h2h weapon).
Btw I also mentioned this in the thread in the monk forum for completeness, http://forums.ffxiclopedia.org/viewtopic.php?p=62543#62543
--Genome 23:56, 2 August 2007 (CDT)
It's good to see some screenshots in this debate (1 picture = 1000 words). It seems that numbers alone aren't very convincing since they are easier to forge.
By looking at how the game calculates the Weapon Rank of weapons with a latent effect D (Maneater uses latent off D), locked weapons (Senjuinrikio uses unlocked D), weapons with a hidden effect D (Company sword), compound ranged weapons (bow+arrows) and H2H weapons, I'm guessing that the weapon rank is not calculated dynamically during run-time anywhere in the game but it's statically assigned to each weapon.--JKL 18:10, 3 August 2007 (CDT)
Yes that's probably how it works, especially since it's easier to code it that way for SE.
The big impact this has however for H2H is that you can't use just one number for weapon rating like you can for other weapons (well a few other latent weapons are a problem too). It was nicer to be naive and slightly incorrect but being able to compute something like "with my H2H skill Destroyers has a weapon rating of 50" and use that to compare it to other weapons and calculate all values for damage. Knowing what we know however means just using a single number like 50 is not enough, and you can't compare H2H to other weapons as easily (for example it will have higher damage but cap at the same damage than a D=50 weapon). Plus the same weapon damage rating number could be coming from higher on-weapon damage and lower H2H skill, or higher H2H skill and lower on-weapon damage, and this would actually give you different damages.
Knowing this for example means that if anybody plans to write more FFXI damage calculators they will actually need to ask people if they are using H2H or another weapon, and what skill they have, instead of just asking them to give you one number equivalent to your weapon rating.
Anyways, I think the 3 entries still need to be made more clear with a little more explanation and maybe even an example or two, so in the Weapon Rank page and STR - VIT Difference Function page we should say something like "Destroyers is a rank 2 weapon regardless of H2H skill", and also explain that for weapon rank and fSTR cap you do use the on-weapon +damage and not the overall weapon damage rating.
Anybody want to edit and add these points? (and possibly a note on using damage calculators when using H2H under the Hand-to-Hand page). --Genome 03:46, 4 August 2007 (CDT)
Post the modifications you want made, I'm assuming just to the second paragraph, and make sure nobody has any objections. --User:Charitwo/Sig 06:01, 4 August 2007 (CDT)
H2H is not the only case where a weapon's damage rating for base damage is different from it's damage rating for weapon rank: Maneater, Blau Dolch are some other examples since their weapon rank is based on the base D rating, not the latent. I'd think it would be better for a damage calculator to have a second field for the damage rating used to determine weapon rank. --Valyana 13:02, 5 August 2007 (CDT)
Proposed Resolution[]
I would propose this edit to the second sentence in the second paragraph, leaving everything else before and after the same (text changed in italics). Where it says:
When calculating the Weapon Rank, the number used as the Weapon Base Damage is the number displayed on the weapon plus 3. (Base Hand-to-hand damage has no Weapon Rank.)
I think it should say something like:
When calculating the Weapon Rank, however, the number used as the Weapon Base Damage is ONLY the number displayed on the weapon plus 3, with NO contribution from H2H skill.
Then I would add the following to make it even clearer and explain the consequences of this:
This means for example that H2H damage is capped slightly lower than other weapons with equivalent damage ratings. For example Destroyers weapon ranking with capped H2H skill is 53, but its damage cap is equivalent to another weapon (sword etc) with a weapon rating of 50 (since its weapon rank is computed using 18+3=21 instead of 53).
Finally I would add a note about damage calculators etc as discussed above, so hopefully future ones will be able to compute H2H damage more accurately:
Note that this can be a problem when using current damage calculators for FFXI, since they assume weapon rank uses the same number as weapon ranking, and would therefore give slightly inaccurate values. To fix this problem with H2H weapons and other weapons which have different weapon ranks than predicted by their weapon ranking (maneater, blau dolch, etc), a damage calculator would have to ask for both the weapon rating and weapon rank separately instead of trying to calculate one from the other.
--Genome 03:32, 11 August 2007 (CDT)
Minor Edit[]
On a note apart from all of this multiplier talk, the table doesn't list the correct stats for the Dynamis Knuckles; it's missing the extra In Dynamis: Delay +96. A minor edit, I know, but... someone fix it. I can't, thanks to the edit war. -Ubiquitous42 20:33, 6 August 2007 (CDT)
- Done. --User:Charitwo/Sig 08:08, 7 August 2007 (CDT)
Can't Edit[]
I came here to look at options for my Monk for level 30-40 and found that this page isn't split up into the seperate level ranged like the armour pages are. I was going to add this into the page, but ... there is no edit button on the top. Anyone know why?--NoOneLeftTalk 00:44, 20 August 2007 (CDT)
Waiting for an agreement on the above discussion to a particular paragraph. --User:Charitwo/Sig 12:39, 24 August 2007 (CDT)
i've tried reading over this entire discussion several times, and i just want to make sure that i'm understanding correctly.
based on the current information on h2h page, is it correct that DPS would be calculated by (([Damage Bonus on weapon]+3)*60)/([Delay Bonus on weapon]+[Martial Arts Level delay])? this would not include the additional damage calculations of current h2h skill nor that whole 0.11|1/9|1/10 thing. >.>
if i am understanding the calculation correctly, the equation for a lvl 40 monk (Martial Arts III, 360 delay) wearing Tourney Patas (damage +11, delay +96) would be:
((11+3)*60)/(96+360) = 1.84 dps
if i may add, even if this calculation is not entirely correct, in a chart of all h2h weapons it provides a fairly decent grounds for comparing dps.
i am going to post the calculations on my talk page. --vm0d 07:57, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
oh dear, not again --User:Charitwo/Sig 13:36, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
i blame 3am... in the process of recalculating using the proper function.
((([Current H2H]*0.11)*3)*60)/([Delay Bonus on weapon]+[Martial Arts Level delay]) --vm0d 15:13, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
Actually, I'm referring to the novel length discussion above where we already agreed on how it was calculated. And you want to do it again? --User:Charitwo/Sig 21:35, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
Just letting you know.[]
The TP/hit and DPS formulae are poo on these, so I'm going to update them to my best ability. Take a look as it happens (Cat Baghnakhs for a first example (mind you, it's lol since it's low level) and leave me a message if you have anything to say about it prz. --Dragonspight 07:31, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
And I know that the DPS still isn't perfectly accurate as to what the weapon adds, but it's a better estimation than what we did have (nothing). Also, the TP/hit is all correct instead of trying to calculate TP/hit based on weapon delay rather than total delay >.>; If anyone finds a decent way to give accurate DPS values on the weapon page (having '(original DPS * (one hand delay [ie, 240,200,190,180,170,160,150 based on MA]) / (one hand delay + weapon's delay/2)) + damage from weapon / total delay per hand. (mind you, I only have it set as the last part, at the moment :( ) --Dragonspight 07:50, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Hand-to-Hand is not Technically a 2handed weapon.[]
H2H is a class all of its own. It's neither 2handed nor 1handed, but it's much more 1handed than 2handed. proof of this can be seen in several places. first of all, neither hasso, nor seigan work with h2h. at the same time neither does dual wield. you can't wear grips or shields.(you can wear shields, but you can't use ws, and you only punch with one hand, thus making it not truly h2h, but rather just Hand)
H2H is closer to 1h than 2h due to the fact that it uses 1h stat mods(2str=1atk, 2dex=1acc)
Theytak 11:35, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Weapon Verification[]
Can we get a weapon verification on the Lyft Sainti. On the Hand-to-hand page they are listed as Str+2 Dex+1, yet on the Lyft Sainti page there is no mention of the Str+2 Dex+1. Briag 16:33, December 14, 2009 (UTC)
Also, Marotte Claws have not been added to the weapon list. I would add them myself but I'm new to Wikia and not entirely sure how. =/ - HeyAFunkyFish