Talk:2009 - (10/21/2009) Job Adjustments and Additions: Part II
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Summoner
First, as Summoner, let me say BOOYA! Basically free avvies depending on gear and how much perpetuation cost the ability gives you, not to mention Diabolos refresh! --Eiryn 18:07, October 21, 2009 (UTC)
Nobody noticed it said these buffs have to be while in range of avatar? So...depending on the range, if avatar was in combat, wouldnt only the DDs be getting the Diablos Refresh? That or Diablos just chilling out by the mages. Nice looking update tho, I think SE just wanted more party config options and fewer groups hanging around waiting for RDM/BRD/COR to pop. Most updates from here on should be looking at balancing jobs to move away from SAM SAM SAM RDM COR BRD or w/e. Personally hoping for mutually exclusive buffs for DRK (like hasso/seigan misery/solace yonin/inin etc etc). --Ropeydonkey 08:26, October 22, 2009 (UTC)
Sadly, I have SMN75 and this looks a bit too overpowered. We have basically been turned into corsair, and yet again has made FFXI even easier. Consider the implications of giving AoE refresh just by standing around? It is a good idea in theory but I can see the effect it will have on the general level of skill of the player base. Next stop: Half TNLs for everyone. --Rayeneth 18:26, October 21, 2009 (UTC)
I'd read it again, Rayneneth. SMN's Avatar gives its power to the party, which implies a general weakening of the Avatar, or so I read. In that case, SE has increased the range that a SMN can operate in. Namely, adding a mini-COR ability onto their already mini-Healer and Damage Dealer roles. --Ctownwoody 18:43, October 21, 2009 (UTC)
Summoners. Exp parties. Compatible. Brain melt in progress. <3 --Azureshock
If I had to guess, I'd assume that your avatar would be limited to direct melee, and blood pacts would probably be locked while the ability was in effect. Which would be an appropriate trade.--DarkTrance 01:18, October 22, 2009 (UTC)
I know I read many moons ago that SE was going to be doing a summoner update, but they had told us we were getting new avatars, and made mention of specifically 2 (no names yet) avatars. What happened SE, you forgot until the last minute and went, oh crap... let's give them something we can add in a week so they don't whine and complain at us again? and, this update is just as nice as whatever -perp the ability gives to the avatars + carbuncle has a permanent WIN factor since he's aleady free. --Chimeramage 01:56, October 22, 2009 (UTC)
Personally, I can't see why summoners want new avatars, I like that Square-Enix is expanding on the job rather than just taking the easy route and just handing them new avatars to hide the fact that most people still don't like to have summoners around. --Shentok 03:15, October 22, 2009 (UTC)
- I see every stat increase with the exception of say +Atk +Acc or +M Def. you have + crit refresh, double attack, regen, magic eva, magic acc and magic atk. There is room for other avatars to be put into place, let's see if they don't surprise us. :) Juilan 07:18, October 22, 2009 (UTC)
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- While i wouldn't agree with all of this statement, i would however agree that promising avatars and failing to deliver seems to be the basis of a faulty business plan to say the least. Milotheshort 23:27, October 22, 2009 (UTC)
I'm really ticked at the fact that SE STILL hasn't given us new avatars. They promised us these now for over two years and the ONLY thing they have given smn over that 2 years is Elemental Siphon. We want our damn avatars.
Well, SE has given smn some amazing abilities that make it hard to complain about updating the job, however, it would be nice for them to quit leading us on by telling us over and over that we WILL have new avvies. If they aren't going to do it, just tell us that, we will cope with getting more and more amazing every smn update! --Eiryn 15:48, October 22, 2009 (UTC)
As SMN 75, I am disapointed about not getting new avatars. As said above, we want them for the same reason people want new gear. It's not that our avatars are bad, people just like new toys. I agree with Eiryn. If you don't plan to give more Avatars I'll live, but just say so up front. That said, I think the new stance to lower perp cost is great. That is what I was telling people in my LS we would get, just wasn't sure what we would give up to get it. Have to see how it plays in game, but it sounds great to me. My impression from reading the release is that the favors will be AoE, probably similar to the range of wards, but possibly slightly larger. Since favors do not interfer with other existing buffs, it makes it ideal for a PLD tank (DRKorBLU dd as well) to have a SMN with diabolos refreshing him while the BRD or COR buffs the DDs without having to worry about the magic melees needing refresh. Not sure how much a factor crit rate and double attack have for DDs, but they seem nice to me as well. Also putting a SMN in the BLM party for events now can give Mag ATT and/or ACC, which is always nice. And I'm guessing a PLD wouldn't turn down DEF+ or MagDEF+ for events either. Just over all makes SMN more useful to have around. Have to see what the actual perp reduction cost is and if the stance will block blood pacts (I'm guessing it won't), but overall a nice bonus for SMN even though we still want new avatars.ShadowKatze 15:59, October 22, 2009 (UTC)
Rayeneth is the only one who has commented under this section who seems to have a concept of game balance. Anyone who had ever been in a party can tell you the SMN's will be using refresh and refresh only. This job can already solo VT imps at 75; it is ridiculous that SE wants to make it even easier. SMN's are already the only healer with a natural auto-refresh and now that this is added, they will never run out of MP. Their refresh has the potential to be more potent than COR also, b/c a COR virtually never rolls an 11, especially on a roll with a lucky number of 5. And since this new ability stacks with other refreshes, it may even work with Sublimation up and will make them gods in party. Sure, everyone wants to be epic, but when it ruins game balance, what's the point? This will go the way of level sync and result in the further dumbing down of players. SMN's will continue to stand on the back line of bird fights as a never-resting healer, while completely unaware of how to use avatars for damage. -Ale&Veri 19:59, October 22, 2009 (UTC)
- Lets clarify "Lucky" and "Perfect" are not one in the same. Perfect is always a result of 11, Lucky is the lowest number a COR can roll (in a single roll) and gain the most benefit. What i said is correct a single roll is values 1-6 before anyone else attempts to correct this statement. It might take multiple rolls (upwards of 5) to obtain the target number, but it is still possible to obtain in 1 roll. Please note also that 6 is not a lucky value. With that said i'd say this is largely another useless patch, further blending jobs together. Milotheshort 23:27, October 22, 2009 (UTC)
Diabolos gives the refresh bonus, so unless you've got relic hat and body with day/weather up. he's gonna cost a decent 6-8mp a tick (loss of auto-refresh included), so after a good 3~5 minutes of leaving diabolos out, party will get a nice 3mp a tick refresh while you're still eating 3-5mp a tick. Let's not forget you'll still need to keep curing if you even have any mp left by that point. Smn will not be using refresh for themselves, that's for sure.
I plan on leaving Ifrit out in merit parties if permitted. hit hastega with garuda then switch to Ifrit until hastega wears off or my mp pool is low. I pull ~1min warcrys from Ifrit and with the double attack + DD should be quite happy with him, though I still expect people to prefer my rdm in merit parties after this update even just for the cure IV.
About game balance, I know blu does better against basically all HNM's than summoner, and in these fights two jobs actually have the the exact same job. I've seen blu's TA+spell tanks to help DD and give tanks hate; avatars don't have that option. I would have to say this update puts summoner a lot closer if not even with the newer jobs. let's see, a comparison... before: blu-3 + (bard/4|cor/3) + (whm|sch)/2. post update: blu-3 + (bard/2|cor2/3) + (whm|sch)/2 = smn/(whm|sch). no change to our DD aspect:phy or mag, no change to curing others aspect: whm or sch, and twice the bard or cor. --Chimeramage 05:43, October 23, 2009 (UTC)
These additions to SMN and BST seem, to me, as effective as giving MNK Footkick. Sure, SMN will get more merit pt invites... maybe not. OK! SMN will become a bit more desirable for endgame events, as a buffer. I am happy to see SE giving BST and SMN attention, but did they need to force SMN into even more of a backline position? SMN is a wonderful DD, if allowed to play the part. Look on the bright side, tho. At least SE didn't give you a JA you only have to activate once every 2hrs... because they think your overworked and can't be bothered to hit a macro for Velocity Shot more than once per typical party.Ravensbane 15:17, October 23, 2009 (UTC)
Chimeramage I don't know where you are getting your numbers, but Diabolos will not cost that much for almost any summoner with halfway decent gear. Pluto/Fay staff(perp-3), nashira gages(-1), Evoker's pigaches +1(-1), Evoker's ring(-1), YYR(-1) and refresh trait brings you down to 5 mp per tick without weather or day. At the start of Diabolos being out with this ability you will most likely go down to 4 mp per tick and over enough time Diabolos will be free with his refresh active. Now, the only thing I am afraid of is that you will not be able to use blood pacts while this ability is active, but a free diabolos while giving other people refresh is pretty sweet in my book! --Eiryn 00:48, October 25, 2009 (UTC)
I believe that calling SMN overpowered is an extreme overestimate by those looking at it that way. SE is basically, as many have pointed out, trying to make them more party friendly, rather than solo-friendly. As it is, it can be hard enough to find a decent party/merit invite nowadays, as other jobs clearly perform better in the desired situations. So, to combat that, SE is attempting to give SMN the ability to match some of these jobs in a party environment, which is really needed. They're not overpowering them, and if they're getting free avatars from this, its through hard work/the chance that they have the necessary equipment to do so (often times requiring very very lengthy amounts of time to camp/save money). Not only that, but we only gain the abilities until the avatar is released, meaning that while you gain refresh with Diabolos out, you lose the ability to use your Lv. 70 BPs (Which, most of you should have noted, Diabolos does not have a BP to match the potential of the Lv.70s) and then take a hit to make sure that you or others have refresh. I definitely see that as a good trade, even with Nightmare being handy. **As a side note, I agree - I want my avatars >.> Haziko 17:37, October 27, 2009 (UTC)
Beastmaster
Beastmaster: Yay! I can finally control what Sic does! Oh wait... it is now on a 6 minute timer to get the good TP moves... Hmmm, wait a minute'I can only use it on Jug Pets, i'll just stick with Sic, oh wait, I CAN'T!!
- It's one minute per charge to a maximum of 3, not 2 minutes. Tahngarthortalk-contribs 16:38, October 22, 2009 (UTC)
But wait there is more for BST! Oh no, wait, there isn't. Wow... Just what every BST has been waiting for, a highly situational ability. As most BST are stuck with Carrie we now have a choice of which rubbish TP move to use.
Oh, wait, the rare time I play Amigo I get to wait 6 mins before I can use 1,000 Needles, most fights don't last that long!
- Again, where are you getting this 6 minute stuff? You get 1 charge per minute, with a maximum of 3. And who said you were supposed to use 1k needles in "most fights?" An alliance of BSTs could instantly kill any mob with 18k HP or less with this. I'd say that's pretty good. Tahngarthortalk-contribs 22:08, October 23, 2009 (UTC)
- The 6 minute thing is coming from under the charges section... "Regardless of the beastmaster's level, one charge will accumulate for every two minutes after a pet has been called, up to a maximum of three." Hope this helps. --Ashelyn of Fenrir 22:49, October 23, 2009 (UTC)
- I withdraw my comment lol... I totally missed the part where it's 2 minutes per charge. That said, since Ready is *replacing* Sic, then Sic Recast Had better affect Ready as well. Tahngarthortalk-contribs 01:37, October 24, 2009 (UTC)
Thank you SE, I just really hope this is a teasing tid-bit of some other extra updates which you are planning for BST. --TarquinOf Pandy 17:59, October 21, 2009 (UTC)
Sorry but I don't think you realize just how nice this could be. Oh sure, you may only get 1 1,000 needle every 6 minutes, but frankly that's about the same, or less, than you'd get it anyways through the random roulette of 'sic'. Courier Carrie will more than likely get defense boost as a single charge ability which would be AWESOME to say the least. --Rayeneth 18:22, October 21, 2009 (UTC)
Not quite the extra stuff I was hoping for, frankly. But for some powerful jugs (who really uses Carrie for TP or ever uses Amigo anymore?), having to wait even 4 minutes between "Sics" for a decent TP move is a lot, considering that the sheer number of Uncapped Jug pets thanks to expanded Beast Affinity. Most pets are at 100TP before the current 2 minute recast is up, or even the fully-merited 1 min, 40 seconds. At one charge/minute, that'd work or having more than 3 charges. --Ctownwoody 18:43, October 21, 2009 (UTC)
Just what every bst wanted. Congradulations guys, you can pick which ws it uses. Don't be shocked SE is screwing you over though with the time restriction. Its only natural they'd get your hopes up then crash you down :) As for the smn I don't agree they deserve a update aren't they happy enough with what they got which is a lot. --Azhrein 20:54, October 21, 2009 (UTC)
I wish there was more clarification on whether or not Sic merits work with the new "Charge" system. For the argument "Now we can choose good TP moves more", in order to use said TP moves you have to forfeit your Sic command giving you 1 TP move in the time you could do 3 TP moves. I guess this is supposed to be punishment for complaining about CC doing Bubble Shower at bad times...--Wpause 20:57, October 21, 2009 (UTC)
As to most BCNM I have done as BST with BST Trio. I normally Call my pet Wait for timer almost to be up to call another pet then then one TP is read do TP. Now that being said. Call pet wait for call pet to almost be up.. I got 2 charges already.. My Ready command is almost going to be at 3 already. and being able to do 1000 needles and pet gets hate. (CHEER.) or any other hi DMG TP move. Also I don't know howmany time I've gone to kill an NM in the field and called my pet 4-5 min before we fight. My bst as bee dead a little while to me but this could bring it back!...--kewitt 15:57, October 21, 2009 (MST)
I really think we needed say Sic: Rage, Sic Ward like they did with SMN. That being said the last time I used a jug pet was when I was fighting Nightmare Vase, I generally avoid using jugs outside of BCNMs, and most of the BCNMs I do on BST I can't use the cactaur, I don't even think they're any on the AH on my server to begin with. This isn't an impressive job adjustment, nor will it be as inpactful as the added regen. Most likely the BSTs on my server will barely use this outside of xp parties, at least this is no where near as good/bad as the despawn update, which personally caused more harm then good to me.... Juilan 07:28, October 22, 2009 (UTC)
I've not done much with BST, so just wanted to ask the BSTs out there. Will this new commmand allow you to skillchain with your pet or does SE just not allow mob-type TP moves to be chained by nonBLUs? If it does allow skillchains I think that would be cool. If not, then SE is just mean.ShadowKatze 15:40, October 22, 2009 (UTC)
- Nope, yet another thing that SE could have done, but didn't. --Ctownwoody 17:04, October 22, 2009 (UTC)
- If they wanted us to do that, they would of allowed us to do that since the start... Not that none of haven't tried. Its just them trying to get people to stop complaining about the usage of sic. Though I think it's only going to be as useful as Snarl was... Something that I have yet to take full advantage.
Well, all depends on SE's definition of this: Adjustments and additions have been scheduled that will greatly enhance the effectiveness of pets called forth via the "Call Beast" ability So far, jug pets suck, if you have a native pet nearby, you're not using a jug, and unless they really tip the TP moves into the favor of the BST (Not happening) this is a gimp... Unless of course they make jugs worth using outside of events, exp pts and a stopgap to find another pet. I mean, will CC's attack be boosted to the point that you like seeing Big Scissors on occasion? Doubt it'll be much but while the removing of sic for this ability sounds so so thus far, I am curious to see how they're fixing jugs. -Alaik 06:01, October 23, 2009 (UTC)
Other jobs
I know i'm not the only one out there a little more than pissed off at this point by SE doubling back and adjusting jobs that have already received adjustments when there still remains a few jobs that have never been considered for warranted changes. To better illustrate and convey my point w/ full efficacy i have included the following table for your viewing pleasure.
November 2009 BST RNG SMN
http://www.playonline.com/pcd/verup/ff11us/detail/4742/detail.html July 2009 NIN BLU DRG
http://www.playonline.com/pcd/verup/ff11us/detail/4377/detail.html April 2009 WHM RDM SCH SMN
http://www.playonline.com/pcd/verup/ff11us/detail/3893/detail.html December 2008 DRG
http://www.playonline.com/pcd/verup/ff11us/detail/3347/detail.html June 2008 MNK PLD BRD
http://www.playonline.com/pcd/update/ff11us/20080311cPxl31/detail.html March 2008* BST THF SAM DRK DRG SMN WAR SCH BLU COR
http://www.playonline.com/pcd/update/ff11us/20071120wwnX41/detail.html nov 2007 BST RNG THF WHM
http://www.playonline.com/pcd/update/ff11us/20070828oz52G1/detail.html aug 2007 PLD DRK PUP** COR** BST BLU** DRG
http://www.playonline.com/pcd/update/ff11us/20070606TsVPr1/detail.html June 2007 DRG COR** PUP** BLU**
http://www.playonline.com/pcd/update/ff11us/20070308c2bbd1/detail.html March 2007 DRK PLD
http://www.playonline.com/pcd/update/ff11us/20061219WH3cX1/detail.html December 2006 PLD BLU COR PUP**
http://www.playonline.com/pcd/update/ff11us/20061017UJ0a71/detail.html October 2006 SAM DRK DRG SMN PUP**
http://www.playonline.com/pcd/update/ff11us/20060725vNusN1/detail.html July 2006*** WHM RDM (SCH) BRD PUP** BLU**
http://www.playonline.com/pcd/update/ff11us/2006041883vPh1/detail.html April 2006 PLD RNG WHM
http://www.playonline.com/pcd/update/ff11us/20051213fMt7e1/detail.html December 2005 BST DRG** SMN
http://www.playonline.com/updateus/050421er1gb1.html April 2005 BRD
http://www.playonline.com/updateus/050224hu5ol4.html Feb 2005 SAM WHM
http://www.playonline.com/updateus/041209we8yu0.html Dec 2004 THF DRG BRD** SMN**
http://www.playonline.com/updateus/040914gs7tr3.html sep 2004 RDM** WHM** BLM** DRK** PLD BRD DRG SMN**
http://www.playonline.com/comnewsus/040629fg5rh3.html june 2004 THF**
http://www.playonline.com/comnewsus/200404226037.html april 2004*** DRG** NIN** MNK** SMN**
All info can be found under "Battle-field" related topics on the corresponding pages. All of these are representative of positive adjustments for the jobs, the 2003 data isn't included because it was all a general re-tweek of the jobs and predominantly positive.
*** = A major nerf ergo magic resistance or tp change
** = a re-tweek of the job to make it more functional in general or the repair of a trait to its original intent or utterly pointless.
* = the major argument as to why it is not indicative of blm to receive a tweek. (Retrace)
SO NOW I HAVE ILLUSTRATED VERY CLEARLY WHY BLM IS DESERVING OF AN UPDATE! the only update the job has received was in 04' and that was to give us scythes YAAAA SCYTHES 200 SKILL IS PWN. We got in 6 yrs a major magic nerf and scythes WOOTSAUCE! NOW GIVE US SOMETHING SUBSTANTIAL FFS! Milotheshort 23:32, October 23, 2009 (UTC)
war needs a update also.. it has only 1 changed added to it. so it is in need of a nice dd side update —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Hp98173 (talk • contribs).
So what's wrong with BLM that needs to be fixed or what needs to be added to BLM? From what I've seen first-hand, BLM is extremely potent in most end-game situations. The only thing that has changed over the years is the player-base no longer using BLM in parties for experience points because of the lack of use of skillchains. BLM is still extremely powerful and doesn't require any adjustments, unless you want a job ability that increases magic accuracy in exchange for a loss in magic attack, because SE has been doing job abilities that take away one status to make another stronger. --Shentok 05:00, October 27, 2009 (UTC)
