Talk:Crafts/Archive 1
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Maybe someone can add something here about how crafts relate to each other and how the guilds work. What I mean is if you take one past 60 can you take another craft past 60? Not at the same time? I would but I honestly don't know and I just took cooking to 61 and wondering what effect that has on other potential crafts down the line. --Gahoo 12:23, 14 August 2006 (EDT)
I added some information here (Relations Between Crafts Above Skill Level 60), useing the efficient wording willriker used in the forums, and I would like to thank willriker for this information.--Davian 07:00, 15 October 2006 (EDT)
Should this include Chocobo Digging? And yes, image is not from SE and is a little blurry at this size. --Gahoo 13:51, 12 January 2007 (EST)
No, Chocobo Digging is more en par with Harvesting, Excavating, Logging and Mining. With the exception of Fishing all crafts are about the creation of items. HELM and Digging are about getting the materials for crafting. --Samsara 14:17, 12 January 2007 (EST)
Perhaps, but if you include chocobo digging, you have to include Mining, Excavation, Harvesting, Logging, Gardening, and any other named hobby. Perhaps, since Hobbies don't have "recipes" per se (Fishing doesn't either, but SE defined that one for us), this should be on another page, "Hobbies"? Since hobbies don't have guilds and their rules differ, depending on which hobby it is, I think it deserves it's own page. Since Crafts and Hobbies are related (Materials >> Manufacture), I think they should be interlinked. --Chrisjander 14:32, 12 January 2007 (EST)
Hobbies
I apologize in advance for the number of files I'm about to upload (and for the quality of the clamming one). I whipped up some icons for these subjects for your approval. Most of them can be touched up so that the lines blur appropriately at the edges, I'm limited to Paint, so I apologize for the quality. It looks like the Chocobo Digging one didn't turn out so great when I enlarged it slightly, so I'm just going to put Gahoo's version in there, and ignore the fact that I ever messed with it (and delete it):
 Harvesting |
 Excavation |
 Logging |
 Mining |
 Chocobo Digging |
 Gardening |
 Clamming |
I agree with both points. I think a "Hobbies" page makes sense, with an overview and links to HELM, Fishing and Digging. And my image wasn't mine. Someone else on here made it. Forget who at the moment. --Gahoo 15:41, 12 January 2007 (EST)
You were the one who was showing it, so I refered to is as yours ;) If you remember, ask if they can touch up my icons, or make better ones. I'm limited by Paint, and it can be frustrating. I'll see what I can do to whip up a Hobbies page that follows the same lines as the Crafts page... (I think Crafts might need to be worked on a little too... I'll work on both) --Chrisjander 15:46, 12 January 2007 (EST)
I'm still against it being called Hobbies, SE didn't call it Hobbies, it isn't really our duty to give it names, especially when they aren't established among the player base, and they are not really Hobbies. --Samsara 17:28, 12 January 2007 (EST)
You have a better name to describe the loose connection between these (I mean this unsarcastically, I welcome different suggestions)? SE didn't call it anything, so yes, it is the communities job to come up with a name for it. We've come up with names for various thing (not FFXIclopedia specifically, but the game community in general) that SE didn't name first, and those names stuck. A hobby is something you do in your spare time that isn't your job or trade. Since crafts are linked together, and jobs are linked together, I linked all the other disconnected activities together. Because SE hasn't named them is precisely the reason we need to. Otherwise there's nothing to connect them. --Chrisjander 17:44, 12 January 2007 (EST)
- That's why we should talk about it, or do you want to list all "something(s) you do in your spare time that isn't your job or trade", that includes Salvage, Garrison, Brenner, Ballista, Besieged, Chocbo Hot and Cold, Events, Quests, Chocobo raising, Chatting in linkshell. By your definition, it would be everything in the game except job and trade.
- My first idea was "Material Gathering", but that is too broad, too --Samsara 17:55, 12 January 2007 (EST)
I understand how SE shows it in game - granted they have no other place to show the skill and have decided to display it (as opposed to digging skill). As I said I would generally defer to their nomenclature, but this strikes me as a prime place to depart (an ever-so-slight-departure). Overall it just looks remarkably similar to digging to me. Take an object (rod vs. chocobo), bait it (bait vs. greens), get item, rinse and repeat, use items in a craft. Both have levels (granted one is hidden, one is not). Crafting involves...well... crafting. It involves mixing things based on a set recipie to get a new result/final product. These hobbies all share the same characteristic that you are seeking out raw materials in nature with the help of some specialized equipment. --Gahoo 17:37, 12 January 2007 (EST)
I can see the similarities, but since we're basically making up a category (SE doesn't have a name to group Hobbies in, so we made it up) we would still want to keep fishing where it was. This is a good reason why I wanted to rework the "Crafts" page, because SE doesn't really group them as "Crafts" but as Tradeskills. Trades have guilds, hobbies to not. Some trades craft things, some catch fish, but all have skill levels. This article is possibly confusing the guild aspect with the crafting aspect. Crafting, as it is, is what you're describing, the combinations of materials into a synthesis, and in that way Fishing doesn't apply correctly to that definition. This article either needs to dump fishing altogether and focus on synthesis rather than the guilds, or keep fishing and focus on the guild / skill limitation aspect. Regardless, they are either related, or unrelated, depending on what we want to focus this article on.
Where are they called crafts or tradeskills or whatnot? Only in the menu where it shows the levels? Anywhere else? --Gahoo 17:46, 12 January 2007 (EST)
- Fishing does too, in a way. Take the proper rod, tuse the proper bait, go to the proper place to get the fish you want. While Chocobo Digging has only on item you can use, liek HELM and only hte place matters. You can't target to get a specific item, with Fishing you take a Halcyon + Insect Paste + Windurst Woods = Moat Carps usually. People wanting to learn about Crafts will expect Fishing to be among them, because the game places them among them. The Fishing page here has been formatted to look like a crafting page, not like Helming or Digging, because Fish have levels and place and bait and rod (a receipe so to speak), the others don't. There is a Fishing guild giving you support, giving you tips, giving you guild items, the others don't --Samsara 17:55, 12 January 2007 (EST)
Currently, this article is only describing Tradeskill Guilds and skill limitations between them, so this article is actually named improperly. Lemme check the menu to see what it says specifically... --Chrisjander 17:48, 12 January 2007 (EST)
- Do you join the fishing guild like you do the others? --Gahoo 17:49, 12 January 2007 (EST)
- Yes, you do join the Fishing guild like the others, the only difference is, that you don't use a crystal and mix items together.--Samsara 17:55, 12 January 2007 (EST)
Good points being made - and certainly Fishing is a little bit confused as far as a craft/hobby goes. I guess I am focusing on the result of the act (i.e. obtaining of raw materials) as opposed to the organizational structure (i.e. guild, support, etc.). I wouldn't liken fishing to crafts based on te bait+rod+location example. That is still a lot more like digging and/or HELM I think than the synthesis involved in the other crafts. Don't forget about gardening which has a ton of variables but is still a hobby by all accounts. Perhaps all of this is solved by some reorganization/renaming. Not sure. --Gahoo 18:11, 12 January 2007 (EST)
Icons
Nice job. I have no articstic talents in this area, but... I like:
- Harvesting, Excavation, Logging, Gardening and Chocobo Digging (if it can be enlarged somehow)
I don't particularly like:
- Mining (not sure how to improve this though, maybe a mountain instead of a hole?) and Clamming (looks like a small tree falling into a top-hat to me)
Overall nicejob though. Fun project for sure. --Gahoo 15:49, 12 January 2007 (EST)
- Came from User:Tinuvael --Gahoo 15:51, 12 January 2007 (EST)
Lol, the clamming bucket was a hat, I uploaded a new version that should look a little more like a bucket. The "tree" is supposed to be a spade. The "hole" for mining is supposed to be a rock... I'll see what I can do to make it look like a gem insead. --Chrisjander 16:42, 12 January 2007 (EST)
I touched those two up, should be more recognizable now. What do you think? (?action=purge) --Chrisjander 16:50, 12 January 2007 (EST)
Gem looks great. Shovel looks better. Hobbies page rocks. Bucket still looks like a hat to me - needs a handle maybe? I think Fishing should be moved from crafts to hobbies now as well. --Gahoo 16:52, 12 January 2007 (EST) bucket? --Gahoo 16:56, 12 January 2007 (EST)
- I always imagined the Clamming bucket to be more bowl like and, well, ELM go their items, can H get a Sickle? Otherwise I like them and they look nice, but I don't like the name. I can't think of a nother one, but Hobbies is a bit misleading. I wouldn't classify those as Hobbies for myself, those are hard work (fun, but still not less serious than crafting). My hobbies are Chocobo Raising, Besieged and doing Quests.
- Fishing shouldnt be moved to Hobbies, or whatever it will be called, the game says that Fishing is a craft. --Samsara 16:59, 12 January 2007 (EST)
Icons looks great now CJ. A sickle would be fine on the harvesting with the flower smaller like the others, but not needed IMO. While I generally vote to follow SE lead on categorization, fishing seems much closer to these than to the real crafts. --Gahoo 17:02, 12 January 2007 (EST)
- The more I look at this more I am convinced that fishing should move. Fishing results are used in crafts (cooking most notably) just like the others. Fishing doesn't effect the 60+ crafting levels, just like the other hobbies. Also moving it would make it a nice even 8 crafts and 8 bobbies (2 rows of 4 for each). --Gahoo 17:12, 12 January 2007 (EST)
- Fishing follows more towards crafts than towards hobbies. You have skill from 0-100 relegating what you can fish up. There's a guild, complete with guild points and items. And lastly, it's under the crafts section in the FFXI menu >.< Regardless of it's "special" rules, I think it still belongs with crafts. --Chrisjander 17:17, 12 January 2007 (EST)
- Fishing is the bastard child of crafts, just like Clamming is the bastard child of hobbies ;) --Chrisjander 17:18, 12 January 2007 (EST)
-
Re: Hobby Icons: I apologize for my delay in joining in on this discussion. As Gahoo stated, the Chocobo Digging "guild" image was one I threw together to put onto my own user page to match the other standard guild icons. Unfortunately, I didn't have the foresight to make it the full size, as I grabbed them from the UserBoxes and it didn't really occur to me at the time that a larger size would be wanted. In any case, I can easily reproduce that at the expected size.
As for the rest, I like your ideas. The thing that frustrates me is that I like consistancy, but even Square-Enix wasn't consistant in their image scheme. While the guild symbols for Alchemy, Clothcraft, Cooking, Fishing, Goldsmithing, and Leathercraft all seem to be the products of their respective crafts, the guild symbol for Bonecraft is more of a base material and the symbols for Smithing and Woodworking are more of the tools of the trade. I really like the idea of combining the tool of a hobby (scythe) with the product of the hobby (harvested material), however it tends to get cluttered. Using just the tool could lead to confusion, as Woodworking already uses a hatchet. On the other hand, using just the end result could be a bit too ambiguous; a pile of logs or chunk of ore might not be immediately obvious like the cluster of flowers, and I think you have to use the bucket for a Clamming icon.
If you still would like me to try my hand at making hobby icons, I would be happy to. I think Chrisjander has already done excellent work and would be loath to presume that you would rather use mine. --Tinuvael 21:00, 17 January 2007 (EST)
- I actually just wanted them touched up a little. If you compare the smooth lines of the hatchet to the log beneath it in paint (or whatever) you'll see what I mean. I just want some of them smoothed out and touched up (I'm somewhat unhappy about how the pickaxe came out...). Anything you can do to smooth the images out would be greatly appreciated. --Chrisjander 21:08, 17 January 2007 (EST)
- Here's what I've come up with: Hobby icons. I made a new pickaxe, modelled after the one in the game. (And yeah, I cheated and used the handle from the hatchet. ;-) ) I was having so much trouble trying to smooth out the clamming one without making it look worse that I started from scratch. Did the same with the gardening, although I think I like yours better. :3 Also, I already uploaded my new Chocobo Digging icon. Let me know which ones, if any, I should save and upload. --Tinuvael 20:33, 18 January 2007 (EST)
- They all look fantastically well done. I don't know about the gardening one though... the quality of the picture is better, but I don't like the look of the icon... All the other ones you can upload. For consistency's sake, I think the Harvesting one might look better if you could make the flowers smaller (like logging, mining and excav) and put in a picture of a sickle (I didn't attempt it because I had such a hard time with the pickaxe) so that it looks like the other tool hobbies. I think the flowers for the gardening look fine, but the pot looks more like an urn, and that's the only thing throwing me off. If you don't want to create a sickle, just upload the one you have, it looks great regardless. --Chrisjander 20:54, 18 January 2007 (EST)
- I agree with everything CJ says. Great Job! --Gahoo 20:57, 18 January 2007 (EST)
- I'm out of time for now, but I'll rework the Gardening and Harvesting icons ASAP. Believe it or not, that "urn" is a Porcelain pot. =P I'll try with a different one — maybe Earthen would look better, or I might just make my own like I did with the pail — and rework the flowers. I can probably grab a sickle from AltanaView the same way I got the pickaxe. I'll upload the other four now. --Tinuvael 21:19, 18 January 2007 (EST)
- Second run through everything: Hobby icons. Changes: updated Harvesting (I like) and Gardening (better, but still not sure); smoothed out bone symbol in Excavation and gem in Mining; tweaked the blurriness around the shovel in Clamming. I didn't use the flowers from the original Harvesting icon because they weren't recognizable at that size. Grass made sense to me, but I can look for something else if you wanted to stick with a flower. As for the gardening, I might just leave out the pot all together if this second try isn't what you were hoping for. Maybe a close-up of a flower bloom with some stylized white lines througout the blossom...? *shrug* --Tinuvael 02:15, 19 January 2007 (EST)
- I love them all right now except gardening. Harvesting looks perfect - great change. Gardening I still like CJs version. I am not opposed to a change on this one if a good icon is found/created. --Gahoo 09:33, 19 January 2007 (EST)
- I'll have one more go at the Gardening one. I'm going to try a tree in a pot (e.g. a sapling ready for harvest), possibly with the fruit standing out from the tree, and see if I can get it to look reasonable. It's a shame I can't find pots or the plants in the model viewer. It would make all of this so much easier. =\ --Tinuvael 10:24, 19 January 2007 (EST)
- Okay, last try: Gardening icons. Tree sapling in a Ceramic (I think) Flowerpot. Originally, I was going to outline the fruit, but I liked how it looked better with the fruit itself as the "empty" color. There are two options here; the only variation is that one has a line between the pot and the tree and the other one does not. Personally, I'm leaning toward the one without the separation, but I thought I'd let the rest of you choose. If you don't like them, let's stick with CJ's. :3 --Tinuvael 12:06, 19 January 2007 (EST)
- I like the 1st tree. --Gahoo 12:52, 19 January 2007 (EST)
- Love it. These are all fantastic, thank you. --Chrisjander 20:17, 19 January 2007 (EST)
