Talk:ML's RDM 101 v2.0 Guide
From FFXIclopedia, the free Final Fantasy XI encyclopedia
Please see if you can condense this information into a single page guide rather than 3 pages. Being a Taru RDM for a very long time now, I find this guide to be full of misinformation. Taru has proven to be the absolute best RDM solo race. Avesta has shined above any other RDM in FFXI history, soloing the toughest NMs from Bune to Charybdis to Genbu. I have never really paid attention to the guides people try to add to FFXIclopedia. We have enforced the guide template at the top of articles such as this, but as I read through this, I can't help but feel.... dirty. There are many misconceptions in this guide, and I have only browsed through pieces of this, I have yet to read this thing in it's entirety. I can tell the person that wrote this tried not to be biased, but it was unavoidable. As the guide template states, "Information expressed in a guide is usually more opinion than fact and should be taken as such."
What would make an article like this a lot better would be proof to back up some of the claims made here. "Taru is a good choice if you prefer to be a backline caster." Comments like that should just be left out. Speak for yourself. Most RDMs become back line casters no matter what the race. I'd even go as far to say a Galka would be a back line caster before a Taru because of their small MP pool - they will be resting far more often than a Taru and would have even less time to pull out that sword. I also see this contradiction: "Mithra are identical to Humes" and then "The disadvantage of Taru is the lowest MND/VIT stats (equivalent to Mithra)". Mithra can't be identicle/equivalent to *one* race let alone *two*.
Be very very careful with this. Like I said, I've barely read through it and I'm finding tons of holes. --Ganiman 12:21, 5 June 2006 (PDT)
Heh, after a quick second look (very quick) you can tell this guide was written by a Hume. Only a Hume would try to make you believe Hume is the best RDM race - which in my experience (not just as a Taru, but as a former leader of a Dynamis LS running the BLMs and RDMs for some time each), this is simply not true. --Ganiman 12:23, 5 June 2006 (PDT)
A) It's a guide (look at the top of the page) and as such IS an opinion, I specificaly attribute it's origin to the original author. I'd rather not change it for that reason. If you feel that strongly about it, there's no reason you couln't create your own guide though. B) I'm also Taru RDM and find your Taru bias in the above statement amusing. C) Avesta is kind of a special case in any event. The dude would be incredible no matter what race his character was. Your average RDM - of any race - can't come close to his acheivements. The biggest fear that most of the RDM community has at the moment is that SE would nerf RDM just because of Avesta. Personaly I don't see that happening. I think Avesta is simply proof positive that in this game, player skill is more important than any other factor. But using him as proof of a position in any argument is dangerous. D) um the first one refers to the general in game equivalence in playing a Hume RDM vs a Mithra RDM the second refers to the equivalence of a Mithra's MND/VIT stats to a Taru's MND/VIT stats. Generaly there is little difference in RDM play style and equipment needs between a Hume RDM and a Mithra RDM.
As far as a biased guide goes, one of the first comprehensive guides out there was horribly biased. But it did have the redeaming feature that it provoked enormous discussion regarding it's precepts and it's position on various issues of being an RDM.
--Strangeone 12:45, 5 June 2006 (PDT)
I'm going to have to agree with Ganiman here, this guide is hardly approaching unbiased. I read this, and feel bad about choosing RDM, rather than the other way around. I'm a Hume RDM at heart, but the downplaying of RDM abilities here is kind of depressing. This almost makes me want to make a RDM guide myself, but I don't have the time, and I'm only RDM 58 so I don't have as much perspective as I'd like to have if I were to start one.
While it does have some information that may be true and helpful (such as the descriptions of the Stats), it really doesn't strike me as unbiased. --Chrisjander 12:54, 5 June 2006 (PDT)
I don't want to get into Avesta discussion too much here, but... yes his skill is well above average. Is he the only one who is capable of such things? Absolutly not. Could such things be accomplished without being a Taru? Not exactly. A non-Taru RDM could not accomplish half of the things Avesta has without being a Taru. Don't take my attack on this guide so personal. You didn't write it. And please, don't comment like I'm new to FFXIclopedia... I don't run the site or anything <_<
FFXIclopedia is meant to be a place of fact. Guides are permitted with the guide template at the top of a page. I think you will find that there are many guides stored here that all have objections in the discussion pages. This one should be no different. For someone new to the game considering playing as RDM, they should be aware of disagreements with the guides. If there weren't discussions commenting on the weak points of a guide like this, then they could be considered gospel and that's just wrong. Then you wind up with a mess of Hume RDMs who play like crap. I've got a lot of experience as a RDM. As I said, I've been the leader of RDMs in Dynamis for a long time (I have since given up that responsibility). I have a lot of experience under my belt being on front lines and training newcomers to be great. I have learned to watch different play styles and help players tweak their own style to be better. I have also seen a lot of Hume RDMs who think they are great simply because they are "the average race playing the average job". That mentality doesn't get you far, and only distances you from becoming any good. I suppose you (or this guide) will tell me that Taru RDM melee is the worst - again, speak for yourself - Avesta isn't the only Taru RDM that can put up some damage.
Don't get all preachy on me and tell me to go write my own guide. I've done more for this site than you can ever conjure up possible in your mind. I don't need to write a guide. I've earned that here. --Ganiman 13:23, 5 June 2006 (PDT)
I did not say I was anti-melee, nor have I ever implied it. There is a lack of differeing RDM guides on this site and I am working to help fix that. Nor did I imply that others could not duplicate Avesta's achievements. I said "average" and you have to admit with all the leech rdm's out there the "average" bar of the RDM population as a whole is not very high.
Heck I have argued that Tarus are should be one of the main melee capable rdm's out there since we sacrifice less than the other races in MP gear and can use the slots other races use for MP gear for other stuff (equipment swap slots and stuff).
Another issue of course is the fact that most guides on the web are actualy written for the pre-65 level RDMs anyways. There are very few guides dealing with end game issues specificaly. Even this guide is very guilty of that. The endgame is a very different world than the pre-endgame. For just about all jobs. There are things that the various RDM races can do that the others can't and there are more things you can do as you aquire end game equipment than you couldn't do before. To a certain degree, guides represent collected experiences mixed in with facts. Most of us actualy come across these experiences of others long after we've started on our own road. I accept that you've got experience as a dynamis ls leader. And you consider yourself one of the "great" rdm's out there. Did any guides help you out along the way? Who wrote them? Where did you read them? Which particular parts of them can you refute personally?
If someone moves this to some form of "historical guides" section of the Red Mage entry (once such a section is created) it would probably be more appropriate. To a certain degree I'd like to make sure that the various steps allong the way to what we are today not be lost.
--Strangeone 14:30, 5 June 2006 (PDT)
I try not to call myself "great". I actually followed very little guides in my development as a RDM. Mainly I looked a the gear guides so I knew what was coming up that I should be saving for. Most of my learning came from reading various posts on numerous forums. I've always kind of felt that guides for this game were incredibly hard to properly create. I don't think I've ever come across a single guide, wether it be about jobs, crafting or whatever, where I was like, "wow, that was great, everyone should read this."
This guide will not get moved. It can stay right where it is. It is more than welcome to that. There are so many different points of views for so many different parts of FFXI - this is just one, which from what I have read of it, I don't completely agree with. Guides that use the authors opinion to back up certain statements are a big pet peeve of mine. A good example of this would be Promyvion guides - "ZOMG YOU NEED 5 SMN TO WIN! ANYTHING ELSE AND YOU DIE LOLOLZZZ!!!11oneZ!!" Something I would consider good guide data is "Taru RDMs have the largest MP pool of all the races." Something I don't like to see is "Taru RDMs are ok if you want to be a back line caster." That's just hard to swallow.
My goal in starting this discussion was to basically repeat what the guide templete disclaimer says. Take what is written here with a grain of salt. I'm sure there are things written here that are fair to everyone, and there are things that are stated through the eyes of one hume RDM. This guide can live here forever as far as I'm concerned - I don't have to agree with some of the things said though. --Ganiman 15:22, 5 June 2006 (PDT)
Article for Deletion
Does this guide need to be marked for AfD discussion? See [[Airspirit's RDM 101 Guide]]. --Ganiman 07:58, 29 August 2006 (EDT)
I think it does, unless the original creator has given permission for it to be transcribed. Some guides that aren't uploaded by the original creator are great, if permission is given, like with Paladin: Guide by Willriker. Will is unable to edit in the wiki for technical reasons, so he asked me to do it for him. Also, he is keeping an active eye on it, and comments on the forums for active changes to it, to make it better and keep it current. Without that kind of oversight, cut and pasted guides from other unknown (and uncontacted) sources I don't think belong here. --Chrisjander 08:20, 29 August 2006 (EDT)
Delete, I say Delete for all of the reasons I have posted on last AfD discussion!! --Nynaeve 08:48, 29 August 2006 (EDT)
Okay. It has been over a week... Much time to discuss this in conjunction with the Airspirit Guide. Per the Article for Deletion - Airspirit's RDM 101 Guide I think this should be deleted as well. Does anyone have any objections to this.
EDIT: I am not a RDM so I would like to know what you RDMs think of this guide. If it is a good Guide then keep it but move the name so Red Mage is first not ML... No one is going to see a Red Mage guide directly if its not under Red Mage in the Guide List. --Nynaeve 09:46, 7 September 2006 (EDT)
Keep: From a quick scan, this looks to be a pretty good guide. The basic information here seems fair and balanced, although with some possible discrepencies. If its out of date, its not far out of date, but we should absolutely make sure that the author has given us permission to post this guide here. Otherwise, I'll give it a more thorough perusal later and see if my initial opinion needs changing. --Chrisjander 10:33, 7 September 2006 (EDT)
User review
Separate and apart from the AfD - which I take no position on ATM, there is a template {{User Review}} which would make reviews such as those above stand out a bit more. I think reviews in this format will prove useful to, frankly, undermine certain guides. --Gahoo 09:21, 29 August 2006 (EDT)
Good point. I'll fill onr out after I take a look at the format, and thr guide. --Chrisjander 09:27, 29 August 2006 (EDT)
