I have some questions about wording in the text. The article says Emptiness forms around a crystal. Doesn't it form within the Mothercrystal? It seems like the whole Hall of Transference is to transport people inside the crystal, and the Halls of Transference maps point to Crystalline Subterrane (it would make sense for Emptiness to eat a crystal from within and Crystalline Subterrane would refer to what's beneath the surface of the crystal, inside it).
Not sure if it would fit in this article, but it might be worth noting Lumoria & Promyvion do not have weather while Vana'diel, Limbus (& Dynamis) do. Looking at the properties of Limbus, it makes sense by its name and attributes that as a whole, it lies in the murky center where Vana'diel's dimension, the dimension of Emptiness, and the dimension of Lumoria meet. Empty are degraded monsters or souls (didn't the CoP preview page say they're clusters of emotions, like seething, weeping, craving, etc?), like the incarnation of instincts or desires/needs. Regular creatures roam Apollyon. Regular creatures roam Temenos, while Lumoria is filled with crystallized or bioluminescent sea life. Apollyon could be considered where Emptiness has absorbed part of Vana'diel, but not deteriorated it down to the point of its denizens becoming Empty (could Apollyon monsters be ENMs that have completely lost their Vana'dielian ties?). Also note each of Apollyon's paths resembles one of the Promyvions (i.e. one has the boreal scenery of Vahzl, another the windmills and the like of Dem, another the bones of Mea, and another the trees and little fenced off graveyards of Holla). The Promyvions match to some extent the scenery around them. If it were Promyvion-Al'Taieu, shouldn't it have cobwebby palm trees and a tropical island, lagoon, and reef look to it? Admittedly though, it does have its own unique tint and it does have a Spire, though no one can enter it. Oh yeah, Central Apollyon seems to have the terrain that is generic to all Promyvions.--zoogelio-forgot-his-password 22:11, 28 February 2007 (EST)
I don't think Empty are creatures absorbed by the Emptiness. Rather, they are the souls (or memories of the souls) that lie in the mothercrystal of that Promyvion. Their memories would form the areas that look like the region. Apollyon would be special since it lost light (I think because the Keeper of the Apocalypse lies there?). It also doesn't have a conventional crag (I don't think) like the other 4 and it has the towers which has power from each of the mothercrystals. Monsters in Limbus were all in Vana'diel at one point, with Apollyon being Emptiness-absorbed dudes and Temenos perhaps captured from the Auroral Updrafts (Crystal Line). ENMs seem to be the Emptiness manifesting as monsters, with exception of the Moblin in the ENM60, since s/he talks. They could very well Emptiness-asborbed, although they seem to be considered "fake" and they have to manifest in one's mind. As for the no weather areas: Promyvion - It's supposed to be "empty" I guess; Lumoria - It's not even on Vana'diel. Limbus would be special I guess since it has one "light" area and one "darkness" area plus it's a place that seems to be in between Lumoria, Promyvion, and Vana'diel. Regarding whether they are around them or inside of them, I think the Promyvion areas were the "Crystalline Subterrane" surrounding the crystal, and the Spire is the crystal. --Joped 22:35, 28 February 2007 (EST)
I don't think that Temenos has anything to do with the emptiness tbh, although if it did the fact that it's the Ou'Hpat Obelisk would make some sense in that regard. Apollyon might as well be Promyvion - Al'taieu (I've always thought that before the meltdown, the Garden of Ru'Hmet was probably the Crag of Al'taieu; the crystal is (sorta) located in the Empyreal Paradox in the basement of the garden). --Toksyuryel 20:55, 2 March 2007 (EST)
Perhaps Temenos is the result of the Ou'Hpat Obelisk and the city's connection with the Crystal Line after the spatial transfer of the capital? I would say Temenos is the city's connection with Vana'diel via the light of the Crystal inside of the Crystal Line, and Apollyon is the city's connection with Vana'diel via the darkness of the Emptiness inside of the Crystal Line, making Limbus in an awkward position between Vana, Promy, and Lumoria, with Temenos towards the light/Lumoria and Apollyon towards the darkness/Promyvion, but Lumoria isn't pure darkness (contains the Keeper) and Promyvion isn't pure darkness (since the Promyvion areas form around mothercrystals). And yeah, the fifth mothercrystal is in the ocean floor and inside the Celestial Capital (Ru'Hmet to be specific) which is inside the mothercrystal. The fact that it's in the garden and the garden is in it forms the Empyreal Paradox where its location in the garden is, I guess. A bit off-topic, but where is Dynamis supposed to be? In Diabolos's mind (since its his dream or something), in that portal in the Shrouded Maw, or what?--Joped 21:19, 2 March 2007 (EST)
EDIT: Personally I think the apocalypse is the result of Promathia, the God of Twilight and end...ness, dying. You could say that the birth of Altana (after the crystal banished the darkness) brought the beginning of Vana'diel and the death of Promathia will bring the end of Vana'diel. --Joped 21:29, 2 March 2007 (EST)
Also, in case anyone is interested, I collected quasilumin dialogue (well, I stole it from Zoogelio >_>) among other things on a subpage of mine. --Joped 21:36, 2 March 2007 (EST)
Don't worry, I got it from somebody else's post on one of the forums, felt it to be relevant information for understanding the story, so copied it into a wordpad file. --zoogelio-forgot-his-password 16:07, 3 March 2007 (EST)
I've always thought that Dynamis ran directly parallel to Vana'diel, that just seems to make the most sense to me. Yay for quasilumins, they need more love <3 You missed the ones in Al'taieu btw. Also it's nice to find someone else who realizes that those are indeed the shattered remains of Odin's protocrystal up there in Bearclaw Pinnacle :D
It's actually stated pretty clearly at the end of CoP how Vana'diel was created, and paradise destroyed:
In ages past, a sentient jewel, enourmous and beautiful, banished the darkness. Its many-colored light filled the world with life and brought fourth mighty gods.
However, the arrival of death implacable brought an end to the God of Twilight.
Aglow with the essence of love eternal, the Dawn Goddess sought to retore the lost divinity.
Upon the fallen deity, Altana bestowed the light of the true crystal.
In the bodies of mortals uncounted was the Twilight God reborn.
The true crystal shattered into five parts, its holy light extinguished. Paradise was no longer. Thus was born the world of Vana'diel.
The way I read this is: Promathia died and Altana tried to bring him back to life, resulting in shattering the crystal, destroying paradise, and making it so that a part of Promathia would be a part of each person who was born in Vana'diel as emptiness (the process seems to have been largely hit or miss, otherwise there would be no Zilart and everybody would have been Kuluu; perhaps this is where it was already heading and would have gone had the meltdown not occurred). --Toksyuryel 03:30, 3 March 2007 (EST)
You're probably right about Dynamis, since you're able to enter a Dynamis area from its normal counterpart. And yay for that dialogue! Thanks a bunch. And I think you're right, everyone would have been Kuluu if the Zilart's blind plan to restore "paradise" never happened. Maybe apocalypse = Promathia dying again and releasing all of the Emptiness he has stored? And for the apocalypse to occur, it would require Al'Taieu coming back completely to Vana'diel, which contains the soul of Promathia? Restoring paradise would also do this I guess since it requires Al'Taieu or at least its energy. Also, upon looking at that text, it seems as though it was Promathia being reborn in mortals that caused the crystal shatter. This would explain why the Ark Angels are malevolent (to cleanse the world of the non-Zilart mortals, right?) and why the sleeping gods want to "restore the divided god" (Promathia probably), so that paradise could be restored. (Whether their selfishness is similar to the Zilart's and they would blindly bring about the apocalypse or if they plan to defeat Promathia when he is whole is unclear.) --Joped 09:30, 3 March 2007 (EST)
In all likelihood they are just as blind as the Zilart, given that defeating Promathia in his true form would either end existence forever or simply cause Altana to repeat exactly what she did before; consider norse mythology: after Ragnarok, the world begins again rather than ending forever. It's possible that a similar cycle exists here, where after the apocalypse occurs (destruction of Vana'diel and/or the subsequent re-destruction of paradise) a new Vana'diel would be born (hi2u sequal). Either that or they have some plan to seal him somehow, but how would Altana react to that? She could easily block their efforts out of her love for Promathia. This brings up another interesting question: how did Promathia die in the first place? Did the Celestial Avatars kill him? Or maybe the emptiness existed before Promathia's death, and its true nature is still not really understood. --Toksyuryel 16:02, 3 March 2007 (EST)
Dynamis seemed to fill the role of "dark alternate reality", seen on many cartoons and tv shows, used to show "what if the bad guys won?" or "what if things were reeeeeally different?". In this case, it was "What if the Beastmen won the Great War?" or "How could the Dunes get any worse?". In terms of its place in the Vana'diel universe, it lies in a parallel dimension (see description of Astral Covenant). For all intents and purposes, it is identical to Vana'diel, except it has permanent Double Dark Weather and the sky is filled with that shroud of dark mist. It seems to be immune to the apocalypse (destruction of Vana'diel by the return of Promathia through the spread of Emptiness) because Diabolos offers people refuge in it.
It seems there are 4 dimensions depicted in this game: the standard dimension (home of Vana'diel), Dynamis (dark dreamworld mirror reflection of Vana'diel), Promyvion (the dimension of Emptiness or perhaps simply wherever Emptiness appears, be it in the real world [Far East, Far South, Far West] or inside the Mothercrystals), Lumoria (this seems to be a reduced paradise since it is inside 1 Mothercrystal, not inside the 1 Great Crystal), with Limbus being where every dimension excluding Dynamis intersect. True Paradise is never seen, at least as it seems. This may change with ToAU (if they add a new dimension, it will probably be the astral plane, where the power of the ACs reside).
It's odd the flaws of the 5 races are mentioned and woven into the game's mythology, yet the Zilart/Kuluu clearly have a flaw and the game never even mentions it as such. Their flaw is their fanatical obsession with returning to paradise (an extension of this is their disgust with being mortal/physical beings and disgust with imperfection, thus the Ark Angels and Nag'molada's various ramblings). One might even say it gives them a cyclopsian vision (tunnel vision; which would explain why a cyclops was trying to open the Gates of Paradise). Their obsession fuels the plot of 2 expansions. And they hear the call of Emptiness too. If I remember the summary from Kerrigan's history website, Nag was the first to act on the call of Emptiness (everyone else was succumbing to it) and release Promathia/the Keeper.
As for Promathia, why he died in the first place, let us look at Paradise. It was said to be "perfect" and the Zilart were trying to return to that "perfection". If Paradise is truly perfect, it would have to include death (or else it would be imperfect). That meant that Paradise wouldn't last forever. There's a famous painting called Et in Arcadia Ego (Latin for "I too, am in Arcadia"; the I refers to Death and Arcadia was a pastoral paradise in Classical belief/literature) which had as the message that even Death lives in Paradise. Emptiness may have originated in Paradise and may have been what killed Promathia. Its either that or Promathia is a suicidal god (thus his desire to return and end all life so he can end himself). He is the God of Twilight (twilight usually refers to the waning years of one's life, just as dawn can refer to the early years of one's life) and isn't associated with Darkness per se, just as Altana isn't associated with Light per se beyond general rhetoric (rhetoric being Light-element being associated with healing & reviving magic and Dark-element being associated with loss of life, like Drain/Aspir and all sorts of Undead or Demons. We don't see Promathia use an array of Dark-element attacks). And the idea of erasing the world and all life on it has appeared throughout the FF series {SPOILERS}: the Dark Cloud in FFIII was created every time there was an imbalance between Light & Dark (there existed a Light World & Dark World, like 2 sides of the same coin) and she would try to further the imbalance until both worlds were destroyed. There was a flood of Light 1000 years ago, and there was a pending flood of Darkness in the present, FFV had the Void (Mu) absorb ExDeath, creating NeoExDeath, who was basically the void given sentience [this can be inferred since what he wanted was different from what XDeath wanted, to rule the world using the power of the Void as a weapon], and FFVIII had Ultimecia who wanted to absorb all time & space so she can be the only thing left existing in the universe.
And yeah, that makes sense as being the empyreal paradox (empyreal is the adjective form of empyrean, which refers to the highest layer of the heavens or the celestial sphere, where the stars reside & the planets roam), the garden is in the crystal which is in the garden (though the crystal is also in the submerged crag). Makes you wonder though, if the Aern are a race of underwater Beastmen. It seems the spatial transfer occurred after the Crag sank into the sea, giving us squids, "goldfish", "sharks/rays", jellyfish UFOs, and the like. --zoogelio-forgot-his-password 17:23, 3 March 2007 (EST)
Hmm, you know I think we may have already gotten a glimpse at the Astral Plane- I do believe it may be where the true forms of the sleeping gods reside, and the protocrystals may be gateways to different parts of it (if this were true, it adds more meat to my theory that the ACs are shards of Alexander's protocrystal). This is especially interesting to think about considering ToAU's apparent focus on said sleeping gods: we have Odin running around chainspelling death on people, apparently Alexander is a gigantic undersea ruin, and in Luzaf's painting they seemed to be fighting each other while the Olduum civilization burned beneath their feet. We know of the overall bitterness between the terrestrial avatars and the celestial avatars, but ToAU looks to be showing us that there is conflict even among the celestial avatars.
My thoughts on the crystal sitting at the bottom of the Sea of Shu'meyo: it might be a projection of the crystal which is really in Lumoria (of course, the crystal *IS* Lumoria, yay paradox) created by Selh'teus in order to facilitate movement to/from Lumoria (when you finally get there he tells you "The crystal is not part of Vana'diel"). --Toksyuryel 17:43, 3 March 2007 (EST)
Grrr, more edit conflicts. Here is what I had to say:
Edit conflicts make me sad (but praise the lord for copying and pasting):
Also, that'd make a nice sequel. Vana'diel ends, and the second Vana'diel revolves around the "memory of the crystal" and the previous Vana'diel(s). However, I'm more interested in a Vana'diel far into the future where they use the power of the mothercrystals and protocrystals for their technology (which follows the cliche of endangering their planet). >_> --Joped 17:58, 3 March 2007 (EST)
That's what I had to say at first. But I believe that's incorrect about Dynamis, Zoogelio. Dynamis is Diabolos's world that mirrors Vana'diel. He created it to escape Vana'diel's fate. If it were a "what if" place, then I doubt San d'Oria/Bastok/Windurst/Jeuno/Tavnazia would look exactly like their modern forms. I'm pretty sure it's meant to be "nightmarish" because you get a cheap attempt at Paradise, but I could be wrong. I'm pretty sure in PM3-5, Tenzen says "then we must be in his dream!" implying that Dynamis is his dream, but I guess since he is connected to the whole world via dreams, you can access it anywhere or something. Also, ALL of the monsters (except MAYBE the statues) found in the original Dynamis areas are from our world (and they had all of those jobs and that appearance 20 years ago, too [obviously not the Hydra Corpse and their hounds were probably just dogs]). The same would go for their counterparts seen in CoP Dynamis areas, but nightmare enemies (except maybe Nightmare Tauri) are just nightmares.
And yes, Emptiness did exist with paradise. It co-existed with the true crystal before paradise came along. Even though the crystal "banished" it, where there is darkness there is light and vice versa.
Regarding luminians, I'm starting to think various things:
A) Luminians are organic creatures created by the Zilart and luminions are robotic creatures created by the Zilart.
B) If you are right about them being the result of the spatial transfer (which seems likely), what were luminions? Objects inside the palace that got morphed? Here is a possibility:
Aerns - Zilart that were alive during the spatial transfer
Xzomits - Cephalopods
Phuabos - Rays
Hpemdes - Kinda tough... Serpents?
Yovras - Sea jellies
Euvhis - Flowers that were mostly inside the palace, but a few were outside, too
Ghrahs - Some elemental objects
Zdeis - Pots
Quasilumins - Spirits inside the mothercrystal
You can say that where they appear in Al'Taieu is based on where they were during the spatial transfer: Zilart/aerns and the plants were obviously on city grounds, xzomits/squids lived at depths that when the city sunk, they were near the city's ground, phuabos/rays and hpemdes/things were below the city during the transfer, and yovras/jellyfish were above it.
Also, here's a possibility of why there's no whether in Lumoria or Promyvion: The elements were spread throughout Vana'diel after the Meltdown (the protocrystals' energy was released). While the elements did exist, there wasn't as much elemental energy flowing. --Joped 17:58, 3 March 2007 (EST)
EDIT: You mentioned ToAU so I had to mention my recent speculation:
"Here's another idea:
The avatar legends are probably false. Maybe they're just myths to explain stuff such as the origin of the sleeping gods and the fall of nations and whatever. Anyway, each of the sleeping gods/legends mean something to certain people:
Ifrit - Kazham (He's regarded as their guardian, no?)
Titan - Bastok (Titan's Day or something)
Leviathan - Norg (Pirate's tale that took place in Elshimo)
Garuda - Rabao/Zepwell Island (I think that's where the nation in the myth was?...)
Shiva - San d'Oria (I forgot, but she looks Elvaan, the story involves the Northlands, etc.)
Ramuh - Mhaura/Buburimu (Tale told by Mhaurans to try to explain what happened to the Olduum civilization?)
Alexander - Moblins (They're looking for the iron giant); Aht Urhgan (Alex is presumably involved in a legend where he/it founded the Empire)
Odin - Kindred (He's the Dark Divinity most likely; this fuels the rivalry between the demons and the Moblins); Aht Urhgan (Enemy of the Empire and their "founder"/Alex)
Anyway, I'm gonna say that the Ruins of Alzadaal are NOT Alexander. Rather, Alexander is behind the Imperial Whitegate, being repaired by the alchemists of Aht Urhgan using the Ultima/Omega parts we give them among other things. I'm gonna say that the Alzadaal Ruins were constructed to replicate Alexander. The five astral candescences could relate to the many fives in the game: 5 races, 5 mothercrystals, 5 terrestrial avatars, 5 Serpent Generals, etc.
I'm also gonna repeat myself and say that the Olduum were a sect of Kuluu who split from the others early on, which would cause the ruins in Aydeewa to be older than Horutoto. Anyway, if it follows some of the patterns of Pso'Xja/Horutoto minus the Gizmo/Avatar Gates, then there should be six towers. Perhaps one of the towers correlate to the six "basic" sleeping gods (Ifrit, Titan, Leviathan, Garuda, Shiva, and Ramuh) and they used the powers of them to try and maybe control or replicate Alexander. However this resulted in the fall of the civilization.
At some point later, whether it be Emperor Alzadaal or someone, someone constructed the Ruins of Alzadaal and tried to replicated Alexander, but that resulted in the ruins sinking. The Mamool Ja took Zhayolm Remnants AC, Trolls Bhaflau Remnants, Arrapago Remnants was taken by either Empire or not taken, and the Kingdom of Ephramad took Silver Sea's. The Empire of Aht Urhgan wanted the ACs, and attacked Ephramad by summoning Alexander. Perhaps Odin had to awake when Alex was summoned (perhaps similar to how the Shadow Lord's "noise" disturbed the Zilart's slumber), and thus fought Alexander. Alexander succeeded in destroying the Kingdom of Ephramad, but Odin defeated Alexander and fell in to slumber back at Bearclaw Pinnacle.
The beastmen then hid their candescence at the tablet islands for fear that the Empire would attack them. When the chimera rebellion occurred, the Undead Swarm either took the Arrapago AC from either the ruins or the Empire, but hid it on Sharug Isle.
During the expedition of the Northlands, Raogrimm came in contact with the Vahzl/fourth mothercrystal (or was it the Dark Divinity/Protocrystal?) which contained Odin's or Promathia's presence, and either it was then or after he became the Shadow Lord he made a pact with Odin. The pact was that Odin would give him an army of demons to rule over the other beastmen and bring havoc to the human races, while in return the Shadow Lord's forces would kidnap Emelyn so she could awaken Odin. It works, however, Odin is somehow not heard from until 30 years. Perhaps after the Shadow Lord's defeat, he returned to Hades or whatever the underworld is called to gather an army of Demons or perhaps to simply wait while still being free.
30 years later, perhaps by finding out via the Tenshodo's trading, Windurst fears the Empire and opens Mhaura's port to Al Zahbi. Perhaps as a distraction or maybe the lives of many are needed, the Empire uses Silver Sea's AC as bait, perhaps to distract their enemies from their true intentions to use Alexander (or maybe the candescences function like the mothercrystals and souls return to them, which would be used to power Alexander or maybe souls return to the Gordeus/Gordius which is needed for Alexander). Whether or not the ACs are needed for Alexander, the Empire probably still wants them to be used for the astral wind. Anyway, Alexander uses the Gordeus to perform a "Judgment Day" thingy and return stuff to the void (probably just means destroying things).
During this time, the Black Coffin's crew escapes from Hades (and apparently make a pact with some imps) and return to Vana'diel as the Ashu Talif. Odin sends Cerberus out to get them (by the way, volcanic locations such as Ifrit's Cauldron and the Halvung Territory are probably gates to the underworld) but is tamed by the Troll merencary captain Gurf. Whether Odin has returned for them and/or for the Empire is beyond me."
I like the idea of ACs being protocrystal shards, though. I'd also imagine that the Astral Plane is at least where we fight the avatars. Another question popped up: Did the 5 mothercrystals create the 5 terrestrial avatars or maybe the sleeping gods (A.K.A. celestials) created them to protect Vana'diel until they awaken or maybe Altana made them. --Joped 18:04, 3 March 2007 (EST)
I like your theories. I hadn't considered that Alzadaal could simply be a replica of Alexander, that's an interesting thought to ponder. And the whole "astral wind" thing is what led me to think that the ACs could possibly be protocrystal shards, because of my thoughts on what the astral plane really is ^^
Considering the fact that the terrestrials and celestials seem to hate each other, leads me to think that the Shadow Lord also made a pact with Diabolos, granting him his powers but condemning him to live out the rest of his days in Dynamis once he dies. I can't understand why his pact with Odin would result in him ending up in Dynamis, given that it is Diabolos's realm. I had heard this tossed around before but I can't verify it until I actually clear all the RotZ dynamis areas, that it was actually stated somewhere that he had made a pact with Diabolos. Is there anyone who has cleared all the RotZ dynamis areas who wants to confirm or disprove this assertion?
And finally: who are the dawnmaidens? We know next to nothing about them. Were they just hyper-religious Zilart who ended up siding with the Kuluu? Or were they a third race of demigods (like the Zilart), or of mortals (like the Kuluu)? --Toksyuryel 19:05, 3 March 2007 (EST)
The Dawnmaidens (sometimes spelled Dawn Maidens) consider themselves Zilart, so they were biologically similar or identical. The 8 statues in the Hall of the Gods (the ones that are not Altana or Promathia) are Dawnmaidens I think, 1 for each element. They devoted themselves to Altana and the elements, I guess.
Also, I doubt Diabolos created the Shadow Lord. Kindred/Ahriman/tauri/imps are Odin's minions. What I'm not sure of if Odin or Promathia gave Rao his powers. He supposedly gave in to his weakness (rage), but he looks much more like a product of the underworld and Hades. It could be that Promathia transformed him, but Odin gave him his demonic army. Or Odin is somehow related to the Emptiness/Promathia, perhaps luring prey with the darkness/Emptiness inside of them. I'm pretty sure some of the snoll tzar cutscenes talk a bit about the Dark Divinity. Also, maybe I'm getting some dialogue confused, but I remember the dark protocrystal thingy was compared with magicite, and magicite was needed for the Shadow Lord's resurrection. Magicite is what, Emptiness blessed by the Eye of Altana or whatever? Is this why they constructed Zvahl next to the fourth/Vahzl mothercrystal? Or was it somehow darker than the first 3? Hence why, when Selh'teus does the Emptiness thingy when you first enter Promyv-Vahzl, the Emptiness is stronger. Perhaps it is darker because the Kuluu attacked that crag and/or because of Odin's presence in the north? Most likely the latter.
Also, I remember reading that, as a last resort, the beastmen made a pact with Diabolos which sent the elite beastmen troops--the Forlorn Vanguard and Dark Kindred--and the Hydra Corps to Dynamis. This also made it so that the next time the Shadow Lord dies, he is sent there, too. However, the beastmen in Dynamis - Beaucedine were also confused when they were sent there. I personally do not recall if it is even mentioned somewhere.
Ooh, ooh, maybe ACs are light protocrystal shards blessed (well, re-blessed) by 1 of the five lights? Hence why they are more spherical (well, they're not the big ball thing in the plinth, they're the small thing that moves [can't tell the shape of the actual thing inside the metal thingy], the big orb is supposedly a product of the astral wind.) --Joped 23:41, 3 March 2007 (EST)
EDIT: Nyzul Isle seems like it's going to be spatial screwed up (weird floors), so I could see this related to the whole "Astral Plane" thingy, perhaps to further copy Alexander. Also, I'm gonna guess that the 5 AC areas with the ACs are spatially messed up (although ramparts are already able to grab monster from around the world, or they're stored somewhere in that area), but without it the area gets the Pathos of Alzadaal. Perhaps they would be Zhayolm, Arrapago, Bhaflau, and Silver Sea Isle with the ACs and it would be Nyzul Remnants. >_> --Joped 23:49, 3 March 2007 (EST)
EDIT2: Upon looking at the Alex/Odin painting, "Alexander" does look like the Alzadaal Ruins, mostly on the top of the castle thingy, although that could mean he fought the ruins and not Alex, or the ruins are modeled after Alex and that is Alexander in that painting. However, when you turn in Ultima/Omega parts, don't they mention a "light divinity"? --Joped 13:17, 4 March 2007 (EST)
EDIT3: I forgot the possibility that only, say, 1 section of the remnants areas and Nyzul Isle are part of Alexander. --Joped 13:30, 4 March 2007 (EST)
First off I do not believe that Odin's protocrystal is made of magicite, I think that is a misconception concerning the fact that Prishe found *her* magicite nearby and that they look somewhat similar. Also, this seems to indicate that the shadow lord may have been using the magicite to control Odin (and that he was already the shadow lord by the time he met Odin):
Prishe : What I want to hear is the lowdown on the big boss behind the Kindred of the Northlands. Prishe : The Mithra seem to think that it's Promathia, but I know better than that. Prishe : So, who the hell is it? He's called the Divinity of Darkness by the beastmen, apparently. Louverance : I returned here to investigate that very fact... Louverance : The legends of the northern islands tell that the Divinity of Darkness slumbers in this land. Louverance : At some time in the past, the Shadow Lord followed the voice of this sleeping deity to its source. Louverance : His actions led by the powerful stone in the possession of the Shadow Lord, the Divinity of Darkness created an army of demons to enter the service of his visitor. Prishe : I think I'm starting to get it now. The being who the beastmen call Promathia is actually... Louverance : Tell me! I must know the truth! ??? : Prishe! Louverance : Wait! Be on your guard! There is something strange afoot! (And it's here that you are attacked by the Snoll Tzar, interrupting Prishe just before she reveals that it's Odin, and of course she never remembers to finish explaining later.)
And yes, the NPC in Mhaura who you turn in the parts to DOES mention that they are using them to try to "restore their lost Light Divinity". I also like your theory that the absence of the AC could be what causes the pathos (especially since model viewer confirms that the plinth in nyzul isle has an AC in it, and there doesn't seem to be any pathos in there). --Toksyuryel 20:15, 4 March 2007 (EST)
That greatly implies that he was already the Shadow Lord, and Odin just gave him an army of demons. He either A) Possessed him with the magicite like you said, (sounds like the most likely I listed) B) Made some sort of trade via the magicite, C) The magicite somehow allowed pasage between Vana'diel and Hades or whatever, or D) Something else. Also to note that "Light Divinity/Divinity of Light" is basically a parallel of "Dark Divinity/Divinity of Darkness".
However, now I wonder who made him the Shadow Lord... Diabolos is a possibility, but I think coming in contact with the Emptiness/magicite surrounding the Vahzl crystal or something seems like the answer, since I vaguely remember him "following the darkness inside of him." --Joped 21:33, 4 March 2007 (EST)
EDIT: Isn't it said somewhere that Emptiness can even threaten a god? If so, I would be suprised if it was used to possess Odin. --Joped 14:53, 5 March 2007 (EST)
EDIT2: If the Shadow Lord possessed Odin to give him his army of demons, is it possible that the capturing of Emilyn to awaken him was done just by the beastmen and the demons in secret? (Or the Shadow Lord was dead by the time they finally used her to awaken Odin.) Also, did the Demons literally "disappear" after the Shadow Lord's defeat? Did they just go into hiding? Or maybe Odin or his protocrystal are needed to keep them in this world, and with the crystal shattered and Odin possibly hiding in the underworld until 20 years later both are gone. --Joped 18:19, 5 March 2007 (EST)
I don't think the 5th Mothercrystal on the Shu'Meyo seafloor is a projection, I think its part of the Mothercrystal, the part that's in this dimension. We see 3 full-intensity (in terms of luminescence) Mothercrystals in Crags, 1 that's darker, but still blue in a darkened, partially ruined crag (is the crystal dark because the lights are out or was there some other reason for its depiction as being darker?), and Al'Taieu's Mothercrystal is golden yellow in a bizarro red-tinted Crag (and in one of the cutscenes, a NPC says the crystal doesn't radiate warmth like the others) and orange with some red in Empyreal Paradox (both in the EP room and then in the spatial place). Nor do I think that crystal *is* Lumoria. The dimensional space inside it is Lumoria, just like it seems the dimensional space in the other 4 are Promyvions, though that always confused me since the dialogue indicates the 5th one is the big problem, yet it lacks a real Promyvion (as I said earlier, Limbus seems like a center for Promyvions in general and not Promyvion-Al'Taieu (i.e. its not a cobwebby version of Al'Taieu) while the others have Promyvions. Maybe it is sort of a representative for Promyvion-Vana'diel (items from the Far East, West, etc turn up in Apollyon & Temenos). However, it seemed as if the Promyvions were only beginning to eat away at the Mothercrystals and the MCs were protecting the Middle Lands, causing Emptiness to devour the frontier portion of the Far East and affect the Far South & Far West (no Gigas or Orcs were present to attest to whether they were having problems up on that northern island or so), presumably because those lands are far away from the Mothercrystals.
The EP battlefield always seemed strange. I figured the giant orange-red crystal was the 5th Mothercrystal, but there are those other weird crystals at the edge of the battlefield. What are they? And why is this battlefield in space over the planet (besides looking cool)? I assume the invisible floor is either created by those crystals on the edge or is the property of "floorness" transferred over from the EP room without the actual matter transfered over and I assume there's air there and some sort of gravity since nobody's floating around (besides Promathia).
BTW, how is the transition from Pso'Xja to the "Crag of Vahzl" handled? I know it has no Hall of Transference and the Crag exists only in cutscenes, but is there a teleporter in or is it at the end of some short tunnel? I'm just trying to get a spatial picture of where the "entrance" is in relation to where the Crag is supposed to be (i.e. in Xarcabard by the telepoint). If it is a tunnel, the maps never seemed to depict a really long tunnel which would justifiably connect to another zone.
The Aern don't seem like the Zilart. The Quasilumins seem to be remnants of the Zilart. The Zilart presumably didn't look like the Aern (they remember Paradise, it seems like they would remember if they had a different form). Hmm, side note, that seems like a cheap drop they didn't give Absolute Virtue, Pair o' Dice, therefore, people who defeated AV could said that got "paradise" after defeating AV (or give CORs riding chocobos a pair of dice to have dangling around the chocobo's neck). I think when the Zilart were described as angelic, it was in the sense of a being inhabiting a heavenly dimension who is not the ruler/creator of that dimension and not in the sense of beings with wings floating around. The Quasilumin's dialogue is Zilartian (mentioning "unauthorized personnel", calling the Quasilumins in Al'Taieu "support personnel" or asking why the "Kuluu boy" didn't bring his friend, the Zilartian prince along), though they may be some sort of ethereal machine (machine without mechanical parts, crafted from magic). Why would beings inside the Mothercrystal express certain things in such terms. They are Zilartian, be they people or some sort of machine. They do have a "drone"-like quality though. Question, Ru'Hmet Quasilumin #4 ("This material is detritus..."), is the material it refers to itself or is there some junk along its trail it says that to refer to?
No weather in Lumoria or Promyvion seems to be a product of the place. Weather affects mundane/earthly (vana'diely?) lands, like Vana'diel and Dynamis. In Promyvion, elements and emotions seem to degrade and aggregate, this the recollections of elements and sensations. It seems as if the weather broke down. Players leave footprints in the Promy dust. Places without wind stirring through allow dust to settle. The Moon, for example, has a lot of dust on it and the astronauts' footprints are preserved there because there is no wind there (and the solar wind doesn't seem to affect it).
As for Dynamis, I meant it was a "what if?" in terms of its design in FFXI, not its proper place relative to Vana'diel and its background in the universe of FFXI. If I remember correctly, people wanted Beastmen attacks on the 4 cities, but because of zoning ordinances :), the Beastmen couldn't invade (Jeuno's got really good lawyers and the Beastmen don't have the power of attorney [evidently there was some falling out between the Yagudo and Harvey Birdman]), so they created dark copies of the 4 cities to give people what they want in a form (before they got the idea to do Besieged in the Near East).
I'll stay out of speculation on who the Alzadaal, Olduum might be or speculation on where Alexander is now or whatnot because from what I've read on forums of the details of the ToAU story to date isn't enough to form any conclusions with solid backing. And I think the 5 Astral Candescences is not necessarily related to the 5 Mothercrystals (which itself stems from the 5 races & the 5 Terrestrial Avatars were probably designed in terms of number after the Mothercrystals. Remember, RotZ & CoP were scripted from the beginning. CoP was the last "planned" expansion as of the development of FFXI. ToAU was the first "unplanned" expansion from the perspective of the early dev of the game. CoP explains the origin of the world, the 5 races, and has the classic, detailed FF-type story. FFXI 1.0 had a cheap LotR rip off of a story and lacked many FFXI elements beyond certain enemies & the 11 Jobs. RotZ added more classic FF elements, like all the major summons (except the big B), Adamantoises, Cactuars, and the FF staples of an ancient race and impending catastrophe which ravaged the world X000 years ago and will soon ravage it again if villain who backstabs character-thought-to-be-the main-villain isn't stopped. RotZ gave it a FF-esque story even if the amount of content was on par with the NES FFs in terms of storyline material and twists & turns. Notice the Serpent Generals' titles: Flame, Water, Stone, Gale, Sky. Those reflect the 5 Japanese elements traditionally (Fire, Water, Earth, Wind, Void) (similar to the 5 Hindu elements, which are the Classic 4 + Akasha, unlike Chinese elements, since Metal & Wood are lacking). Remember, the 5th element is sometimes considered Void, sometimes Ether/Quintessence/Akasha, the divine medium that makes up heaven. Its the whole just because B is after A doesn't mean A caused B thing.
As for the Dark Crystal in Uleguerand. It seemed kinda odd. Maybe it is the Dark Protocrystal, but it seemed like it looked more like a dark material, like the demons' armor rather than like a crystal. The other Protocrystals glow and glimmer, but look like crystals nonetheless; the pics I've seen of that cutscene show something that looks more like a rock than a crystal. Its hard to describe, but it seems to be visually of a different type from the Protocrystals. It looks to me like that "crystal" was dark magicite (maybe the divinity inside it was encased in magicite, a Demon Emperor or some other malevolent force [King Paimon seems to be the head of the demons, though he seems to be of the same origination as the rank and file Demons. If I remember all the demonology research I did to fill in all their historical backgrounds, there are a few demons who filled the highest level of hellish hierarchy or Beelzebubian bureaucracy whose names haven't been used yet). Then again, maybe SE just decided to depict the Dark Protocrystal differently and the dark divinity is Odin. Hmm, what was the material in sliver forms from the 3 Promys that is brought together in "Apocalypse Nigh" to fight the parade of bosses in EP (I notice people seem to forget Nag and 3 Empty with Dark element cores were there too). One point of speculation from me is maybe the "dark divinity" is being extrapolated/individualized too much; maybe it could be the darkness in each race, their fatal flaw given sentence (like a racial Shadow in the collective unconscious of the race). Shadow Lord is a supersized Demon-looking Galka. Maybe the crystallized Emptiness that is in the dark magicite just draws out the evil within and sort of makes that racial shadow possess someone vulnerable to it in the presence of it. The Shadow Lord was possessed by a deep rage (Rage being his race's flaw). I'd love to see a giant demonic Taru be fought- it would be the master of fleeing (since their flaw is cowardice) or a giant demonic Hume (they would presumably just sit there and let the Adventurers hack away on them because the Hume flaw is Apathy). It seems like the only menacing "Shadow Lords" would be Galka, Elvaan, or Mithra. Though I wonder about the story recounted for the Snoll Tzar scene. Didn't Raogrimm get dumped in a crevasse when he was taken over, not find it and get transformed in an ice cave atop a mountain? Hmm, wait, it says the sleeping deity created the Demons to serve the Shadow Lord. It doesn't explicitly say it created the Shadow Lord, just the Demons. It is a "sleeping deity", so could refer to any of the 8 Celestial Avatars or the other 5 Gods not mentioned in the game (besides Altana, Promathia, Uggalepih, and, as I suspect, Zahak would be one of these 8 deities). I do agree, the use of the terms Light Divinity & Dark Divinity would seem to indicate Alexander & Odin, unless SE is planning on throwing in a plot twist, like Hades being Lord of the Demons and the "dark divinity".
Finally, it is said Emptiness has the power to destroy even a god. I don't think Emptiness possessed Odin. Its kinda said the will of Promathia is Emptiness, and seems to imply he is sort of the personification of Emptiness (and maybe his whole existential dilemma, of wanting to kill himself or all life housing his essence, his "chains" [the life on Vana'diel] is because he is Emptiness, yet he exists, and if Nonexistence was made to incarnate, it presumably would want to cease to exist). Altana seems to be the personification of life & creation. --zoogelio-forgot-his-password 19:25, 5 March 2007 (EST)
At this point there is almost no denying that the Dark Divinity/Odin/ruler of the Underworld/Dark Rider are 1 unless SE reveals a huge plot twist. Alexander is a bit more mysterious... Light Divinity probably means Alex.
Regarding aerns not being Zilart, if they are indeed morphed creatures born of the spatial transfer, they have to be. They're in all areas, are humanoid. Just because they don't look like them doesn't matter if everything got morphed, although Luminians could be biological weapons whereas Luminions are technological weapons like I said earlier. Quasilumins would be souls in the fifth mothercrystal, or maybe the city's system thingies. Also, I don't know where you get "Zilart being angelic" from? We see a whole bunch of them and they are just light-haired Humes in appearance. I doubt they looked any different in Paradise. No idea about the detritus comment, debris would make sense though.
Also, it doesn't need a true Promyvion. If Promyvion areas form around a crystal with light, then obviously a normal one, if one at all, wouldn't form around a crystal that has lost its light. It lost its light because Promathia's soul is in there, right? If the Emptiness is the will of Promathia, it being a "central Promyvion" makes sense.
Regarding Pso'Xja, it's a tunnel much like how you get to the first 3 Promyvion areas from the halls. I'm guessing the reason it is a bit darker from the first 3 crystals is because the Shadow Lord drained some energy from it I believe? Hence why Zvahl was built right next to it. I'm guessing that the reason he was led to it was because he was angry and it is more revealed than the first 3. When you first visit the crystal, there is no visible Emptiness until Selh'teus uses his Emptiness abilities. I believe the tunnels become an Emptiness-filled tunnel afterwards like how the other Promy entrances become after the first few cutscenes.
I personally think the crystals in the Empyreal Paradox are supposed to symbolize the crystal energy of the world. It's 1 big crystal, 5 medium crystals, and a bunch of small crystal I believe? The 5 medium crystals are obvious, the little crystals represent the crystal energy found throughout the world (protocrystals, regular crystals, other stuff like the things golems chilax around?) and around the crystals, I guess, and the big one either represent the crystals as one or its supposed to be Lumoria's fifth crystal. The "being in space" is probably supposed to symbolize that Al'Taieu is separate, yet plummeting towards, Vana'diel. Whether you a literally in space (inside a crystal? inside a spatial bubble? space in Vana'diel is different?) or it is symbollic, I don't know.
And if Emptiness can destroy a person and control them and destroy a god, then I would imagine it could control a god. It does seem to be the cause of Promathia's wanting to end everything.
Also, something I've been wanting to say: Some of the flytrap pages bother me. The noun in front of "-trap" aren't meant to be literal, as they are all flytraps. It probably referrs to its environment, power, and a cool way of SE making Vana'dielians a lot like people when it comes to naming things, mythology, assuming, etc.
--Joped 20:59, 5 March 2007 (EST)
EDIT: The Dark Divinity is being individualized because it is referred to as a deity and as the dark crystal seen I believe. Promathia, on the other hand, is called a divided god because he is divided among all living beings. However, it seems the beastmen (well, Orcs, Quadav, Yagudo, and some Goblins) think that the Dark Divinity which the Kindred worship is Promathia, although the Moblins know that this is false and call the Kindred and their Divinity of Darkness as "false prophets." Speaking of which, the quest arc with the Moblin and her missionary brother mention that they got the beastmen on their side because the Orcs follow anyone with power, the Quadav follow anyone who can give them status, the Yagudo follow anyone who has their...vessel or something, the Goblins and Gigas were mercenaries, the Antica and Tonberries probably joined because they are instinctive (Antica) and want to kill the races of people anyway, and they got the Sahagin out of fear towards the end, although the Sahagin generally remain neutral. Anyway, what is the Yagudo's "vessel" or whatever? --Joped 21:13, 5 March 2007 (EST)
EDIT2: Did Promathia create the Emptiness (hence why it is his will) or did he sort of make a pact with it? I always assumed that the darkness the crystal banished was that (well, ever since 2004 or whatever revealed the Emptiness), but it could have just been "the void/Mu"-like things. --Joped 21:22, 5 March 2007 (EST)
The "angelic" comment comes from many people calling the Zilart angelic when describing their pre-Vana'diel existence. I mentioned it to clarify in what ways it is accurate and inaccurate.
I don't think Promathia created the Emptiness. Promathia and Altana were presumably created when the Great Crystal banished the "darkness" (non-existence). Since it created a perfect existence, non-existence would have to have a place in it. There isn't enough evidence to substantiate this, but it seems major functions (creation, annihilation/obliteration [different from death & recycling the soul]) were allotted to some of the 8 Gods (Altana, Promathia and unnamed others). I don't think he made a pact with it. He seems to be Emptiness given sentience or is a being whose essence is dominated by Emptiness, causing him to behave in his way. And the "darkness" banished probably was Emptiness, since emptiness is the nullifcation or absence of all existence and Dark is an element and elements are components of existence. Darkness is absence of Light, not absence of existence, though this is muddied by people calling non-existence darkness. It can be basically summarized by: non-existence is dark (adjective), but it is not Dark/Darkness (noun). Emptiness is Mu given a new English name besides Void. Actually, it would be more precise to call it Sunyata, though I should probably write up the historical background on Chains of Promathia since Emptiness and the idea of chains (with each flaw being a chain) binding us does exist in a religion. Just one thing to get around to eventually (my History of each Job in FFXI and across the FF Series is still in a partially written state, and it has been for months. My thesis and coursework is sucking up all my writing-energy).
As for the flytraps, I'll go back and add a little tagline on the end mentioning it may be an exaggeration or a case of creative naming. --zoogelio-forgot-his-password 23:00, 5 March 2007 (EST)
What 6 unnamed gods? You mean the 8 statues of the Dawnmaidens in the Hall of the Gods? I think the original gods were Altana, Promathia, and the 8 sleeping gods (Ifrit, Titan, etc.). Some dialogue hints at those avatar legends being false, with maybe some truth like maybe there was a beastmen race like Titan, etc. Uggalepih is more likely than not just a result from the Kuluu's twisted view.
I'm guessing Promathia allowed the Emptiness absorbed, which resulted in his death and in his control over the Emptiness.
Anyway, I'm gonna get a bit fanon and say that the Shijin are the guardians of Tu'Lia and Lumorians are the operators of Al'Taieu, with Luminians once being the creatures I mentioned earlier, Luminions once being in-animate objects, and Quasilumins once being magic, energy, souls, or something. The Shijin would once be the 5 creatures that they are. The Jailers would be high-ranking Lumorians/guardians like the Shijin of Tu'Lia. --Joped 16:04, 6 March 2007 (EST)
EDIT: Thanks for the correction, Charitwo. --Joped 16:28, 6 March 2007 (EST)
Its been mentioned early on there are multiple gods. I can't think of which ones specifically, but it implied there was more than Altana, and there wasn't just one other. And I don't think there's enough evidence to suggest Uggalepih is made up. Zahak is the lead deity in the Near East. There isn't any more evidence suggesting he/it is any more real/fake than Uggalepih, but it is assumed to be real. Is it certain the statues between A & P are dawnmaidens, or are they simply non descript statues? I looked at pics saved from Hall of the Gods and that ZM cutscene and the base of the robes is different: the statues have many ridges in it, looking sorta like a pillar's grooves. The DMs have smooth dark dresses with a sort of frock around their backside hanging down made of a lighter material. The DMs also have headdresses, not full hoods, like the statues do. Besides, why would non-gods have statues in the Hall of the Gods? And if the DMs were in there (supporters of Altana), then why would Promathia have a statue in this little Altana fan club?
The Shijin are "gods" according to their dialogue (divine guardian implies some sort of divinity, not to mention them calling adventurers mortals [not something one mortal says to another], and calling them children of Vana'diel). It isn't clear what dimension they originally resided in, only that they were slumbering. I assume the prison Kirin was referring to was either Tu'Lia in general or Vana'diel in general. If they are guardians of Tu'Lia, they aren't too happy about that. They state they guard the directions, so they guard north, south, east, and west, whatever that means. I don't think the Lumorians operate it. The Ghrah & Zdei seem to be fancier models of Dolls & Magic Pots. The other creatures seem to be just living there. The Lumorians are either incarnated sins jailing the virtues or incarnated virtues who when slain their virtue returns to the "mothercrystal of virtues" (absolute virtue). Your previous idea of by holding the virtue they become more virtuous is another possibility. The Aern don't seem to be operators, they just seem to float around. They could fit your theory, transfigured Zilart, or they could be underwater Beastmen. Since the island "sank" and some creatures lived underwater, surely they would move in to investigate. Of course, islands sinking tends to be bad science, as they are mountains rising up from the seafloor or built up reefs, though they can sink through earthquakes lowering the level that land is at or through rising water levels (I don't think the mechanism for why the island sank is mentioned); then again, Al'Taieu could be artificial. Some of Tenochtitlan (Aztec capital city) were built on floating platforms made from reeds and plants. In fact, those floating platforms were used as their farm fields. The main part of the city was an actual island though. I guess the palm trees on Al'Taieu, which was north of Qufim make it seem a bit "artificial" (though I suspect the Zilart were using crystal power to make the island warmer than its surrounding climate). There isn't any backstory provided to the Aern to support either theory; they're just "there".
Oh yeah, on flytraps, they don't necessarily all eat flies. Carnivorous plants eat insects or any small arachnids, and some can digest anything that falls into them, including any unfortunate frog. These flytraps are not proper flytraps, they actually resemble pitcher plants. So, birdtraps and fishtraps may be appropriately named (though no reports of birds being eaten exist to my knowledge since can fly out of a trap, being able to overcome the strength of the plant's modified leaves, but I can imagine a pitcher plant filled with nectar luring a hummingbird to its doom. As for fish, there are some underwater carnivorous plants that eat small aquatic invertebrates. In theory, a fish that likes living in small caves or dark spaces could be lured inside a fishtrap's "mouth"). --zoogelio-forgot-his-password 18:09, 6 March 2007 (EST)
Uh, multiple gods would be Altana, Promathia, Ifrit, Titan, Leviathan, Garuda, Shiva, Ramuh, Alexander, and Odin. It's possible that other deities were created, but there's not many implications, as the only other gods mentioned are the six sleeping gods (and there's hinted at awakened gods, obviously Odin and probably Alexander) and five terrestrial avatars. I wouldn't look too much into stuff like Uggalepih and Zahak. They could be "real" to an extent, such as the Star Sibyl being Altana incarnated, and if I remember their powers are more based on Fenrir and the Full Moon Fountain. Also, the 8 other statues have the same attire as the 8 elemental Dawnmaidens seen in
And how do you know what aerns do? XD They are inside and outside of the palace which really makes me think they are morphed Zilart if stuff there are supposed to be creatures morphed from the spatial transfer. Also, beastmen didn't exist yet because the Meltdown had not yet occurred (or occurred too early for stuff to evolve/spread), but then again, stuff like Kindred, Lamiae/Merrows, and Poroggos have shown us that beastmen do not have to be sentient creatures born of the Meltdown.
And obviously flytraps can eat more than flies, but I'm pretty sure they don't eat everything in their prefixes.
Also, not sure if the Shijin's and the Jailer's dialogue are supposed to be canon (or at least factual/true). It would be weird for them to include non-canon stories in-game. I could see the Shijin being some sort of gods being imprisoned by the Zilart, though. All Lumorians, for all we know, could be creatures purely born out of the spatial transfer, and are not necessarily ex-creatures. Or they could be creatures of the mothercrystals, which would fit seeing as how they have memories much like Empty and this would make them sort of opposites. --Joped 16:56, 7 March 2007 (EST)
SE may have indeed thrown us that curveball with the latest additions to the ToAU storyline. HUGE FREAKIN' OMG SPOILERS: In the last cutscene of mission 29 Luzaf is seen escaping through a darkness summoning circle, one which he himself created. Could this mean that Luzaf is in fact the Dark Rider, and that it's NOT Odin? There are still a few missions to go though, so I'll hold off on judgement until I've seen the end of the current update, but still it's got me thinking. --Toksyuryel 15:15, 8 March 2007 (EST)