Talk:Ninja/Archive 1
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| This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
If you would like to add more Strengths and Weaknesses, Be brief.
If you would like to be more extensive in the length or detail of the Strength or Weakness, please add it to the Race and Subjob Guide linked at the bottom of the page. The purpose of the section on this page is merely to provide a brief look at the major strengths and weaknesses of the job. Please reserve more in depth discussions for the guide linked at the bottom.
--Mierin 12:40, 31 Jan 2006 (PST)
Contents |
Merits
What's up with where it says merits Sange under abilities? I assume a typo?
Sorta. Originaly the pages were unlocked after the update to allow for additions and adjustments to be made to the pages based on the addition of Teir II merits, ToAU artifact armors, etc. Since there was no applied standard to merited abilites, it would seem that the standard that was implemented later didn't carry over to this page. --Zero 21:37, 2 October 2006 (EDT)
So is someone going to fix that? XD
I don't see the problem. --Gahoo 14:44, 16 October 2006 (EDT)
Sange is listed twice. Once under abilities off to the side, and once under merits. That doesn't seem to fit with any of the other job pages, and it seems highly out of place under abilities. Maybe you mean for it to be that way.
Just check other job pages, it's not set up like that. I changed it to mimic the other job page setups. --Chrisjander 01:32, 25 October 2006 (EDT)
changes
I condencsed everything and altered a lot, but as a long time Ninja player I felt this page had a lot of misinformation. For instance:
- Ninja's don't really require the need for a Thief. Its a party mechanic or in some cases a luxury, but its certainly not required. If the Ninja knows what he or she is doing and the party isn't going crazy Ninja's can hold hate fine. Having the hate be easilly shiftable actually becomes a desirable trait later when more Damage Dealer jobs sub Thief to avoid the heavy emnity of their weapon skills and Thief Weapon Skills themselves become incredibly powerful.
- The notion that a Ninja should only wear Evasion gear has steadilly erroded over time. There's no point in being evasive if the enemy isn't even hitting you, so many players have experimented with offensive gear and many have reached various preferences to one or the other, or a balance of both. I feel while it is worth it to note that evasion + can be good, its a bit misleading to say that its a prerequesite to playing the job.
- Ninja all around consider Shuriken unwieldy. While pretty much any Ninja wishes they could effectively use Shuriken the combination of their cost and difficulty of use makes them very rare weapons to be used.
- I felt various other subtle differences should be noted too, such as the shadow count of Ni between sub job and main job.
I love this job and I wanted to get a few more things down in a compact manner, because it is a very complex job.
I'd make adjustments to other jobs too but this is the one I know the most, so I want to stick to it.--Kiyosuki 19:13, 27 Sep 2005 (PDT)
link change
under 'Weapon of Choice' the link points to Category:Katanas, it should point to Category:Katana (no plural) --Chrisjander 09:33, 6 March 2006 (PST)
Potency
Ninja Strenghts should be corrected. Most corresponding enfeebles (especially Slow) are MORE powerful than ninjutsu. Ninjutsu has a much lower RESIST rate, however.
(Slow, as an example, caps at -30% to the mob's attack speed. Hojo: Ni caps at -18% to attack speed, but overwrites the spell Slow.)
I would like to see where you got these numbers from. are they just aburtrairy. b/c i've found my slow/para/blind to be more efective then a blm/rdm's Ferine 23:29, 17 August 2006 (EDT)
http://64.39.26.234/limitbreak/files/guides/test.htm (Not mine, but I've reproduced it more or less.)
Rather than "cap," it's better to describe Hojo: Ni (and by extention, probably Kurayami) as always static; when it lands it's 18% (or 19% depending on who you ask), period, and there is absolutely no way to change how potent Ni enfeebles are (perhaps Ichi's as well?). The White Magic counterparts are more or less potent according to the difference between the caster and target's MND.
As you might infer, there are times the magic Slow will be more powerful, and there will be times the Ninjutsu Slow will be - however, since the caster's MND needs to be around 40 over the target's MND for Slow to be more potent than 18%, stuff like that usually doesn't happen until higher levels and strong equipment sets are reached, at which point any real caster focused on spell potency will overpower Ninjutsu enfeebles. Hojo: Ni will always overwrite Slow (I) because of the tier difference though, regardless of if the latter actually more potent at the time.
Anyway, my personal suggested correction would be "Ninjutsu Enfeebles have abnormally low resist rates, and have static potency regardless of enemy stats" or something like that.
Side comment: I'm almost positive I have done a no-effect Jubaku when a RDM casted on a mob with sufficient MND. Slow II will also probably be overwritten by Hojo Ni as well if the caster's MND is something like... 50 below the mob's.
The numbers on ~30% are from testing from numerous RDMs over a year's worth of studying. Although I have had Slows that I couldn't even tell were HAVING an effect, I DO know that it's a real pain for a static-effect spell to be considered "always more powerful" as that statement is not just misleading, but flat-out false. Additionally, yes, with sufficience scores a White magic slow can cause Ninjutsu to have no effect, however, you're already past the Mob's MND at that point anyway. Hojo: Ni doesn't need to have "no effect" to mean the other spell is more potent. I support saying they are more accurate, a guarateed effect %, etc, but saying they are more powerful over-all is false and this Wiki seems to strive for the most accurate information possible...
S and W Changes
- Perception of job has been warped to the point of rarely being able to get a party as a Damage Dealing role.
Let me be honest for a moment here. Few people will invite a Ninja that doesn't want to tank.
- Enfeebling Ninjutsus are more powerful than similar enfeeble magic spells.
I'm going to leave this one up for debate, but I don't belive it to be right. For example Dokumori takes away 1HP/tick as opposed to Poison II which I belive is 2HP/tick. And according to the above, Slow is actualy way better than Hojo. Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not going to change it since I don't really know yet. --Zero 22:26, 29 July 2006 (EDT)
Poison I is 1 HP a tick, Poison II is more around 6 or so HP a tick. I do not know anything about dokumori tick rates :( --Chrisjander 00:22, 30 July 2006 (EDT)
I think when I get Dokumori'd by Mamool Ja NIN it's 3/tick. But yes, at high levels RDM slow is usually stronger than Hojo because of all the MND gear the RDM can stack on. The only reason to let the NIN debuff at that point is to help them hold hate.
I also object to the "perception" weakness line. It has nothing to do with "perception", NIN is objectively a very effective tank (at least once they get Utsusemi: Ni) and a pretty weak DD until the mid-60s. Why would you level NIN past 37 if you don't want to tank? --Valyana 13:50, 7 August 2006 (EDT)
- Well, the tank role is a happy accident of the NIN's Utsusemi ability, not an intended purpose. SE stated this much shortly before (or after, I can't remember) the NA PS2 release, as I'm sure you've heard countless times before.
- Based on the abilities that NIN has, it's likely that SE intended for them to be a debuff class and/or puller. I mean, they have elemental Ninjutsu spells that lower resistance to specific elementals, they have Blind, Paralyze, Slow and Poison skills that are quite powerful, they have shadows to negate damage in the event they do get hate or happen to be pulling, they have an A- in Evasion to negate some damage if they lose all their shadows, and they have an A- rating in Throwing weapons, as well as access to Shurikens, which are one of the most powerful throwing weapons in the game.
- Their AF also seem to lean towards this idea. NIN AF contains almost nothing of benefit to a tank except for a couple of points in AGI, a couple in VIT, and an Evasion bonus that only activates during nighttime. It has less overall DEF than the PLD or Warrior sets, less of an HP bonus, but does have bonuses for ranged attack and ranged accuracy, and +5 to Throwing skill.
- Their merit abilities further suggest that NIN != tank. Sange doesn't have a place if you're tanking. It does if you're trying to deal ranged damage though. Very important for things like HNMs, I imagine, but useless if you have to kite, pull, or otherwise do anything that requires you to keep your shadows. Then there's the new San ninjutsu. Stronger elemental debuffs? For what? Oh, right, so that BLM's new AMII and RDM's new debuffs can land unresisted.
- Based on this information, it's likely that a NIN was supposed to work very closely with a BLM or RDM in the group, lowering elemental resistances so that their spells would have the best effect possible. A NIN could also co-ordinate with the melee by debuffing before a skillchain to ensure that the elemental damage from the effect did as much damage as possible. Finally, they could go and pull monsters. They have a trait that lessens their chance of detection by mobs, can throw a shuriken to get the mob's attention, and then have Utsusemi and their high evasion negate any damage they might have taken on the way back to camp.
- However, because of the perception of NIN in the community, this role can't even be properly explored, because it's their expectation to serve as tanks and nothing else, and anybody who tries different is going to get called a newb and not get invites. How is that not a weakness? -- Quanta 03:36, 21 August 2006 (EDT)
Ninja Debuf
Ok. Ninja's have 2 Ninjutsu Debuffs. Ichi and Ni and 3 elemental Ninjutsu Ichi, Ni and San I will deal with each in turn.
Ichi
- Elemental Ichi
- These are slow to cast, do little damage but the damage/resist rate seems to be mostly influinced by your ninjutsu skill.
- Debuff Ichi
- These are slow to cast, are comperable to the teir ones they represent (aka Slow, Paralyze, exct) If you cast Jubaku: Ichi and then a RDM Casts Paralyze. His paralyze will have no effect.
- From what my experience. Jubaku: Ichi Will proc as much or more then a RDM Casting it without Enfeebling Magic Merits
Ni
- Elemental Ni
- These cast quite quickly, do moderate damage (comperable to the teir 2 of their respected level. aka Suiton: Ni will do comperable dmg to Water II
- The Damage output and resistance seems to be greatly influenced by the amount of INT you have. and somewhat by the amount of skill you have
- Debuff Ni
- These cast fast and Have a high rate of proc and chance of sticking.
- These Will over-write a spell cast by anyone else. ( if a RDM Cast's Blind on a mob and you cast Kurayami: Ni you will over write their spell)
- Int seems to help the reist rate on these spells. Ninjutsu also helps but not as much as INT helps
- Teir 2 debuffs will over write our spells. making me think their like tier 1.5
San
- Elemental San
- havn't been able to play with these yet so somone feel free to fill in here.
Ferine 23:29, 17 August 2006 (EDT)
- That implies that party dynamis should support one-another's jobs.... The most you'll see that is when a mage keeps saying /p REFRESH ME!1! Though this whole discussion seems more threadworthy, I think the observance that a NIN -can- support others, especially mages, should be noted. A lot of times, NINs use the elemental wheel to magic burst, rather than increase the accuracy rate of the more powerful MBers. Llana 03:05, 14 November 2006 (EST)
