Talk:Paladin/Archive 1
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If you would like to add more Strengths and Weaknesses, Be brief.
If you would like to be more extensive in the length or detail of the Strength or Weakness, please add it to the Race and Subjob Guide linked at the bottom of the page. The purpose of the section on this page is merely to provide a brief look at the major strengths and weaknesses of the job. Please reserve more in depth discussions for the guide linked at the bottom.
--Mierin 12:43, 31 Jan 2006 (PST)
Contents |
About MP and downtime
"Limited MP pool, without the ability to conserve or refresh MP until 35, leads to more downtime in early levels due to the need to rest."
It is not necessarily true there would be more downtime, and the MP problem certainly can be mitigated with consumables--just like a Ninja use shihei for damage mitigation, a PLD's can use juices to minimize downtime. At level 25, Bard's Ballad is also a tremendous help for the lucky ones.
Even without a Bard, a proper pulling rhythm would allow time to rest for MP between fights; full or nearly so between first fight and chain #1, and a little less time for each of the following battles in the chain.
The real trade off is a little more subtle; what a NIN or a WAR tank can do is to keep their TP between battles, while PLD must surrender a good portion of that in order to regain MP. However, low level NIN/WAR an and WAR/NIN tanks tend to lose mob control often and take more net damage in early levels, so they are a bigger drain on healers (both to cure them and other party members) than a PLD.
I will admit it's easy to cause downtime from MP mismanagement on PLD.
Also, PLD does not have a "conserve" MP trait; it's just auto-refresh at Lv.35, as far as I know.
In any case, I would reword as thus:
"Limited MP pool makes it easy to cause downtime form MP mismanagement, especially in the early levels."
"Difficult to participate in skillchains; can't keep TP between battles due to the need to rest for MP."
--Itazura 23:54, 22 May 2006 (PDT)
I wouldn't refer to it as mismanagement, I would refer to it as being difficult to manage. I'd say the original statement would probably be fine if you just change it to "can lead to more downtime." --Syeria 03:59, 23 May 2006 (PDT)
Syeria, doesn't "difficult to manage" pretty much imply "easy to mismanage"? Would you mind explaining a little more why "mismanagement" is not a good term? Does it perhaps imply something which is untrue? --Itazura 18:07, 24 May 2006 (PDT)
Your statement implies that any player who causes downtime is not good at their job because they're mismanaging their mp. This isn't true, it's difficult to manage the mp pool, but some downtime is almost inevitable, regardless of player skill. Furthermore, a Paladin's mp pool is managed more by the puller than the Paladin a lot of the time. There's enough discrimination against Paladins as it is without a negative view about those who just aren't above and beyond good at their job. --Syeria 03:20, 25 May 2006 (PDT)
As a 34 PLD (and thus pre-Refresh), I can tell you right now that PLDs have no problems gaining TP. Yes, we lose it if we rest, but a PLD can gain 100 TP every fight due to the new trait Shield Mastery and the added benefits to TP it gives. I can participate in Skill Chains if the other party members are willing to work with me.
However, as always, because a tank has more important things to pay attention to, such as maintaining hate and keeping himself alive, it is never advisable to have the tank participate in the SkillChain. I always cringe when people suggest that the tank participate in a SC and I'm adament that they should not have to close one.
As for downtime due to MP problems, PLDs have the same issue WHMs or BLMs have. We have access to +HMP wands for resting, and with our smaller pool, it maxes out faster.
The sum of what I'm saying is that SE pretty much eliminated this weakness from PLDs. Auto-refresh shows up just as PLDs are starting to have MP problems, and Shield Mastery allows us to use our TP each fight and not waste it.
I think this Weakness should be just edited down to: "Limited MP pool which may run out in longer, drawn out fights."
--Mierin 06:23, 25 May 2006 (PDT)
"Limited MP pool which may run out in longer, drawn out fights."
Sounds good to me, though I'm still of the opinion good MP management skills and consumables can help quite a bit unless the party is over hunting. (Controlling puller is also a part of MP management.) However, that's just an opinion.
I disagree with the TP enough to use weapon skill every fight statement, though; I certainly didn't see that on my PLD31. I was able to alternate with BLU in my static to close Distortion with SAM, but even that was only 3/5 fights both of us combined.
Is there really any usable MP regeneration while healing equipment for PLD before Lv.41 (Reverend Sash)? At Lv.51, there's a Dark Staff, which is used by many PLD from what I've read--but no wands, to my knowledge. (I have a Pilgrim's Wand, but that's for BLM, BLU, RDM, SMN, and WHM only.)
I have a BRD in static party, so I already have 1 MP/tick at all times, so it doesn't look like Auto-Refresh by itself can help me keep enough TP between fights to use weapon skill every fight. --Itazura 16:06, 26 May 2006 (PDT)
As for the HMP thing, I stand corrected. I thought the Pilgrim's Wand was for all jobs.
As for the TP thing, I'm positive that I had TP for every fight. However, as I also stated, I don't think a PLD or NIN should ever have to SC because they have too many other things to deal with.
--Mierin 16:33, 26 May 2006 (PDT)
SC for tanks is a decision between individual tanks and parties, probably. I SC'ed well on WAR/MNK, ok on NIN/WAR (had to take a hit or two sometimes for it), and every few fights on PLD. Mierin, I don't seem to have the right to edit the page, so would you mind putting that line in if you can? "Limited MP pool which may run out in longer, drawn out fights" seems very appropriate. --Itazura 23:56, 26 May 2006 (PDT)
Personaly, I don't aggree with this statement. As from what I'm reading above, all of the above statements do not come from high level Paladins (as I am writing this, I just dinged 55). Personaly, my endurance is longer than it should be without the use of another character. While I can't nessisarily keep it up for longer than ten minutes, keeping it as long as I did without a refresh or anything other than Auto-Refresh was pretty good I should say (Though I was red and had almost no MP left). If I had Spirit Taker I probably would of lasted longer. I think it should be reworded into something like, "Before 63 MP pool may run out without outside help in a lengthy fight." --Zero 15:52, 28 May 2006 (PDT)
RE: "Limited MP pool which may run out in longer, drawn out fights"
I have a level 75 paladin who is a Mithra. I long, drawn out fight to me would be different then a paladin at a lower level then myself. Also, a tarutaru paladin would have plenty of MP to draw upon in a battle. (Granted, the HP is less, but I'm just talking about this one statement.) I feel that this statement is true, but it doesn't apply to paladins of all races and levels. It could also be true for Galka white mages as well as Galka paladins. I think it ought to be deleted. --Pinkfae 16:41, 28 May 2006 (PDT)
Not having high level job, I guess I'm going out on a limb in saying this: every job that uses MP is limited by its MP pool in some ways. Personally, I think PLD's MP limitation can be overcome with good MP management skills, refresh/ballad support, and consumables--and the Paladin community rightly expects no less from each member. However, I'm told words like "mismanagement" should not be used when it comes to describing the situation.
For those who already made it high up there and have mastered all things Paladin, don't forget there are those of us still down here find our ways up. As a general introduction to Paladin, it would be remiss to not mention this particular difficulty for PLD's, especially to those looking at the page trying to decide whether become one or not. --Itazura 17:29, 30 May 2006 (PDT)
Strengths/Weaknesses
My gods I want to fix the grammer but there's no Edit button! Why are some jobs editable, but others not? Whoever can edit these pages please fix the grammer, it makes my head hurt. >.<
All job pages are currently protected: Special:Log/protect. You can leave comments here on the talk page with suggestions for the admins. --Ichthyos 07:04, 8 August 2006 (EDT)
- When do they go unprotected? I know I've just recently edited job pages (BRD for example). Chernabog 01:27, 9 August 2006 (EDT)
They were unprotected temporarily to allow addition of the new merit abilities only. Post suggested changes here for the admins. --Gahoo 10:10, 9 August 2006 (EDT)
Coding Error
The TOC link for the guides is misdirected should be Paladin#Guides not Paladin#Paladin Guides. --Pinkfae 15:25, 18 August 2006 (EDT)
Link works fine for me... What's wrong with it on your end, pink? --Chrisjander 15:28, 18 August 2006 (EDT)
Nevermind, Gahoo changed it just before I looked at it. --Chrisjander 15:29, 18 August 2006 (EDT)
missing relic
Ragnarok should be listed in the relic set Aegis should be listed on the relic set as well
Paladins and Archery
Looking through archery it seems as though there are multiple bows Paladins can use. Admittedly, you'd probably never see a Paladin use one, but they are available so I'm curious why the skill (and cap) are not listed anywhere in the Wiki. --Ulf 08:25, 15 October 2006 (EDT)
Paladins have no archery skill. The only skill they get in it is from their subjob, but they cannot get any skillups in archery. Bows are usually equiped just for the stats you can get from them (like the Lightning Bow and the Rosenbogen), or for pulling while farming and the like. --Tsakiki 08:56, 15 October 2006 (EDT)
That makes sense. Perhaps this information should be added to the page then? --Ulf 09:09, 15 October 2006 (EDT)
There are many types of weapons that are equipable by different jobs, but they dont' have skill in them. RDM can equip certain H2H weapons, but has no skill, PLD can equip longbows, BLM can equip the Rune Axe, but I don't think it's worth mentioning every weapon a job can use on the job page. Most of the noteworthy weapons are mentioned in guides. I know, for example, that the Rosenbogen is mentioned in the PLD guide by willriker. --Chrisjander 11:56, 15 October 2006 (EDT)
PLD + AGI?
Why does the main Jobs page list AGI as being important for PLD?? Chernabog 06:28, 4 December 2006 (EST)
From the Agility page: "A stat that is compared with an attacker's dexterity to determine the likelihood that the enemy's blow will be a critical. Agility also has a direct impact on a character's evasion, shield, parry, and ranged accuracy stats. For every two points of AGI a character has, these stats are raised by one point." It's the boost AGI gives to a PLD's Shield and Parry skills that are the most important. Plus the higher your agility, the less likely you are to get hit with a critical hit, and any damage reduction is a good thing. --Tsakiki 07:02, 4 December 2006 (EST)
Ah, I see. Ok, cool. AGI wasn't something I really associated with PLD before. Chernabog 04:57, 5 December 2006 (EST)
Shield Mastery II + III
Any proof that PLD has multiple levels of shield mastery? Beyond Lv.30 (whenever it's first obtained), I don't see any difference. --Altimo 18:25, 11 August 2007 (CDT) Nevermind, I could notice the difference after a minor bit of observation. --Altimo 23:46, 24 August 2007 (CDT)
