Talk:Red Mage: Guide to Playing the Job
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>> Only job with access to the spell Refresh, which makes Red Mage a support powerhouse.
That's technically true, but a bit misleading; BRD has Ballad I & II, and COR has Evoker's Roll or something. Ballad I & II together is just as effective as Refresh, if a bit harder to target the melee's with MP with. Not sure about COR's roll, but I think it can reach 3mp/tick as well.
>> One of two jobs with the ability to Dispel enemy buffs, making Red Mage an essential part of nearly every party.
I assume the other job would be BRD's with their Magic Finale. Unless it's resisted a lot, BLU's Geist Wall (Lv.46) can substitute for RDM's dispel. If AoE Dispel is dangerous, they have a Voracious Trunk later at Lv.64. If anything, BLU is the only job with two "dispel" spells, althought the second one is actually stealing the effect. -Itazura 21:58, 19 June 2006 (PDT)
Contents |
So, some changes to strengths
- Ability to use both White magic and Black magic as well as melee weaponry at user's discretion.
Replaced with a blurb about wide range of native combat and magic skills and adaptability
- The only job that can use enspells, spells that temporarily add an elemental effect to your weapon. For example, enthunder will allow you to have additional thunder damage every time you successfully hit a monster.
While En-spells are nifty, they doesn't come close to what damages melees like Lv.70+ NIN's can do w/out en-spell, or what BLM or Lv.70+ SMN's can do with their destructive magic. Unique? Nearly so. Strength relative to other jobs? Not really...
- The only job that can learn the spell Refresh, which recharges MP just like Regen recharges HP.
Repetitive. Refresh is great, but not great enough deserve two square bullets by itself.
Also, changed the solo'ing stuff a bit; to my knowledge, the Red Mage style isn't just about "Phalanx up" then beat up the monster, but to outlast them instead--and do so in any way possible. While Phalanx plus Stoneskin is definitely one way; so is Sleep-Nuke cycle; so is Gravity and Bind kiting; so is melee'ing dual wield + en-spell, and absorbing Ancient Magic with Utsusemi:Ichi but otherwise not wasting time with that ~3 second spell while solo'ing a Lv.60 cap BCNM.
Anyway, seems like the most important thing about soloing is have a plan. Then, it's just a matter of picking the right subjob and equipement for the tactics needed, and go outlast the critters--'cause a RDM sure can't drop'em like SMN or BLM using 2hr, so most things will take a while. From what I can tell, a lot of time, it's all about staying alive from Convert to Convert while making progress on denting the monster's HP bar. (Sounds so easy in theory...) But, all that won't really fit in the amount of space appropriate for "strengths", so um... yeah... didn't put it in.
I can't remember whether SMN also has dispel of some sort, but I'm too tired to find out. I'm sure someone will figure it out and correct the page if I've missed it, and change it to "4 jobs". Other than that, it's still long and wordy, but some wordsmiths will fix that, sooner or later. Hopefully. -Itazura 23:08, 19 June 2006 (PDT)
"Lunar Roar Removes two beneficial magic effects from enemies within area of effect."
Found that under Fenrir, sounds like dispel to me. --Chrisjander 06:30, 20 June 2006 (PDT)
Lunar Roar is AOE and dispells 2 effects on any mob. Its not the best for because it is aoe. Crowd control becomes an issues. --Gatsby 09:51, 2 August 2006 (EDT)
Altered /SMN /NIN /BRD /PLD
/SMN: Removed references to Vermillion's Clock, Imperial Standing Refresh, and having Bard in party. (You can have any or all of those wtih whatever support job.) Tried to briefly outline the differences with the standard /WHM and /BLM use. Probably failed.
/NIN: Added the use of elemental ninjutsu as a debuff; to my knowledge, they cannot be resisted even with half level Ninjutsu skill. (Short duration, but very strong debuff-- element-30 or something.)
/BRD: Removed debuff as benefit of /BRD. Unlike elemental Ninjutsu, threnody can be resisted, and will not land on exp mobs. Added comparion to /SMN, the other "odd" support job used in exp parties, since it's the only other support job which can increase MP recharge rate by 33%.
editorial: /SMN is for a RDM who like to cast more spells, while /BRD is for a RDM who like to make other mages cast more spells. Both become viable at RDM Lv.50.
/PLD: Fixed some wording issues. (Defense Bonus and Flash are not "abilities"--at least not job abilities.)
Other random, minor changes. Check history for differences. /BLU not included. >_> --Itazura 07:01, 5 August 2006 (EDT)
/NIN comment
I just removed the comment "some RDM75/NIN37 have been able to solo the prime avatars (Fenrir excluded)." from the /NIN section. It makes it sound as though only a RDM/NIN can solo prime avatars, when in fact RDM/BLM, RDM/BLU, probably RDM/WHM, RDM/SMN, etc. can all solo primes, not to mention WHM/NIN, MNK/NIN, SMNs, and probably more that I'm forgetting, can all solo them. Matjlav 17:19, 14 August 2006 (EDT)
I don't agree with the removal of the comment. You should state that it is possible to solo the prime avatars are a 75RDM/37NIN. The above statement also does not preclude the notion that other jobs can solo the avatars. It just states that you can solo them. --Gatsby 18:00, 14 August 2006 (EDT)
Yes, it does not directly state it, but that is the clear implication. Not to mention, being able to solo the primes is not a very significant fact. Being able to solo prime avatars isn't what gives RDM/NIN its reputation as an amazing soloer. Perhaps putting something along the lines of "RDM/NIN is capable of soloing many things that would be impossible for other jobs." would be better? Matjlav 20:57, 14 August 2006 (EDT)
I personally believe soloing an avatar is still impressive no matter how its done. Its more commonplace than it was before because the technique on how to solo an avatar is common but that does not degrade from the fact that you can solo an avatar. In retrospect, the fact that you could solo a prime avatar was one of the reasons why RDM/NIN was considered a great soloer. If you wish to use the Avesta scale of soloing, then its not an accomplishment but most normal people will not even see half the gear Avesta has. My suggestions would be to restore the line to something along the lines of "the abilities of the NIN subjob allow a RDM to solo many things including but not exclusive to Prime Avatars and higher level NMs." Rewording is needed though. I'm rather verbose in my language. --Gatsby 23:57, 14 August 2006 (EDT)
I just don't see why the Prime Avatars need special mention... if it's in RDM/NIN, why not put it in all the other subjobs that RDM can use to defeat the avatars solo, and all the other jobs that can kill the prime avatars solo? Being able to solo Hakutaku or Genbu is far more impressive than the avatars. Matjlav 13:47, 15 August 2006 (EDT)
The reason why I say this is important is because it was the first true solo job that was able to solo a prime avatar. Although easy now, it was not so much before hand. Soloing Genbu isn't much of an accomplishement. Poison 2 DOT for extended periods of time with a lot of refresh gear (as I said above. stuff that most normal rdms won't see) makes him easy but long. Hakutaku is impressive I'll grant you that but there only a few players game wide that can solo Hakutaku. --Gatsby 15:10, 17 August 2006 (EDT)
I don't know how soloing a god isn't impressive, but I haven't fought any, so I'll keep my uneducated opinions to just that. --Chrisjander 15:20, 17 August 2006 (EDT)
Genbu is the softest god imaginable. Hes slow. He moves like a turtle and his spells aren't that bad. Genbu is considered a skill up session whenever we kill him. Bring out your low level weapons and start whacking genbu! If people really tried, he can die in under 1 minute. --Gatsby 17:50, 17 August 2006 (EDT)
But saying "the abilities of the NIN subjob allow a RDM to solo Prime Avatars" is just false. /NIN doesn't allow RDM to solo Primes. Stoneskin, Phalanx, Refresh, and Convert do. /NIN allows WHMs and MNKs to solo primes, not RDMs. Matjlav 11:09, 18 August 2006 (EDT)
The ability to blink all the damage the avatar does via utsu (blink is unreliable in damage mitigation) is the sole reason why a RDM is able to solo a prime avatar. I don't need to use convert or phalanx when soloing them. Therefore, you need utsusemi to be able to solo them. Stoneskin does not last long enough to withstand the constant hits from a prime. --Gatsby 11:17, 18 August 2006 (EDT)
False, I've soloed avatars with BLM sub before, RDM has enough damage mitigation that we don't need Utsusemi for these, you're overestimating the difficulty of the primes. I prefer NIN sub just so I can dual-wield Martial/Joy and spam Spirits Within at 200tp, and I only use Utsusemi:Ni as a convenience when I want to recast Stoneskin. Just because this method is a bit easier (and I'll agree that it is) doesn't mean that it's the only effective one.--Phlux 12:02, 18 August 2006 (EDT)
I think we are getting to the semantics of the argument instead of the crux of the situation. The original line "some RDM75/NIN37 have been able to solo the prime avatars (Fenrir excluded)." was removed because Matjlav said "It makes it sound as though only a RDM/NIN can solo prime avatars" I will agree that NIN subjob isn't the only sub needed to beat a prime avatar (I've done it on rdm/blm) but it does make it significantly easier. As I stated above, the introduction of additional equipment has made soloing them much much easier especially with the martial swords add TP effect and spirits but that does not detract from the fact that you can solo them with ease now as RDM/NIN. Phlux you stated that you prefer RDM/NIN for Utsu and dual wield (both traits of NINs) for an easier time. All I'm trying to say is that this line should have been reworded to include the possibility of soloing primes. If not just primes, then other decently strong NMs. The argument for the solo ability of other NMs such as Haku, Genbu and Ash dragon for example is a moot point. Its the same strat repeated ad nauseum for each one of these 3 NMs. They also rely heavily on a fully meritted RDM to be able to accomplish this while soloing these avatars for example any lvl 74+ RDM/NIN can do with ease. --Gatsby 12:11, 18 August 2006 (EDT)
Wait, you just said that utsusemi is absolutely necessary to solo primes, but then you say that you've soloed primes as RDM/BLM? I'm not seeing what you're saying here. And by the way, I know for a fact utsusemi is not necessary to solo primes; I've seen a RDM/BLM solo them. Matjlav 10:26, 21 August 2006 (EDT)
Outside sources?
Just out of curiosity, what's the reasoning/policy behind Gahoo's removal of The Red Mage Index link from the bottom of this guide? Why is it "links to outside sources such as this are inappropriate"?
(Disclaimer: While I did compile that index, this isn't a rant about the link removal; just want to know and understand FFXIClopedia's policy regarding external sources of information.)
--Itazura 17:18, 6 June 2007 (CDT)
RDM/SCH vs RDM/BLM below 37
If you are leveling RDM as a sub job option then it is worth noting the following:
- Until level 20 /SCH and /BLM have identical spell lists
- From 20 to 37 subbing SCH give access to the following via Addendum: White:
- Poisona
- Paralyna
- Blindna
- From 20 to 37 subbing BLM gives access to the following:
- Drain
- Stonega
- Shock
- Warp
- Rasp
- Subbing SCH also gives you Resist Silence and access to Light and Dark Arts at lvl 20
This seems like a no brainer to me.
