Talk:Ridill
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Here's some data regarding Ridill proc rate over the course of 1020 rounds of attacks:
1322212312222113322312332212322121122212223222231222221222231321213222223212312221222313233223122321
2112212223222223131221223231222112131213212112223331312332223222222211311221213221122212211221221213
1232332221223222213221121331221321222222211322223222212233223212213231322223133212122222131222122232
1122123112211232122222212211221213232322321121122122222233222121221112123321132221222332322132321233
2223211232122121123222312221323121132211131231222132212312313221323221122222223231122212122132122223
1221231312312221222222112122231322122221221111222233122212331131222121221111231221112222222212311113
3222232221122223213222212223112222222123221212322322211123321231333231212123232121113113133133132321
2133123222332223222123212123223221222221222212222313223312122221312312212222331323122312222221222221
3332122323231322221212131131132323322222121222333222322213221321222321132212332121222121322332222222
2222121112122123222222221313323211311312223211213221331222132332112212212111121221123231212331311221
32322123223212212221
- (I've edited this so it shows lines of every 100 attacks plus the last 20, so it doesnt go off page. --Siion 03:36, 26 August 2008 (UTC))
36% single attacks, 44% double attacks, 20% triple attacks. → 27% single attacks, 53% double attacks, 20% triple attacks.
The test was conducted by Searain on Garuda server as War/Nin (hence the +10% DA from the job trait influenced the double, single and triple attacks distribution somehow) while single wielding Ridill; the test subject wasn't benefitting of the effects of any Double/Triple Attack enhancing item/food/buff/merit upgrade (such as Brutal Earring, Warrior's Cuisses, Fighter's Roll and so forth). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by SearainGaruda (talk • contribs).
For this to have any meaning, we'd have to do some serious math, or do this with a job that doesn't have double attack. --◄Chrisjander► t/ c 13:31, 23 June 2007 (CDT)
Its purpose is showing what kind of proc rate Ridill displays when used by a Warrior, easily considered the best Ridill-wielding class of the game, nothing more, nothing less and surely nothing that would require any kind of mathematical analysis to be understood.
Besides, this test alone debunks the "33-33-33" hits distribution theory (at least for Warrior users) that kept being mentioned (but never concretely back-up'ped with some sort of data) on the most popular message boards for the past few years and basically always taken for granted since it somehow matched the impression Ridill gives when eyeballing its proc rate on multi hits, which is enough of a meaning to justify a publication on the wiki. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by SearainGaruda (talk • contribs).
I'm in the process of repeating the same kind of test on Thief (natural Triple attacker) and DRK/NIN (neutral as in it doesn't have any "native" DA or TA job trait) so we'll have some more data available to start making a comparison and eventually try figuring out the interactions between double/triple attack bonus from job traits and the multi-hit properties of the weapon (what checks first, which one prevails, etc.) and perhaps, as a consequence, the discovery of the real proc rate will ensue. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by SearainGaruda (talk • contribs).
It would seem to me that Double Attack only procs on the single hits (making them double), otherwise we'd see more 3's and some 4's from WAR. We can take that same assumption and apply it relatively reliably to Triple Attack. Putting this small sample through some mathematics would reveal a 40/40/20 between singles, doubles, and triples respectively if we count assumed double attacks as "singles that proc DA". The math behind that being: "10% DA" only can proc on singles, meaning the "36% of total" reported singles would represent only "90% of single hits", as the other 10% of singles would be represented as part of the "44% of total" reported doubles. If 36 is 90%, then 4 is 10%, meaning "4% of total" reported doubles are actually "singles that proc DA". That makes the distribution for this sample for warriors as 40/40/20. For a more conclusive test as to just the proc rate of Ridill, it would need to be tested with, as you suggest, a neutral job such as DRK, BST, RNG or SAM (without WAR sub, though I'm not sure if there's any difference with Zanshin, so maybe not SAM) and preferably with a sample size of at least 5,000. --◄Chrisjander► t/ c 21:02, 23 June 2007 (CDT)
Interesting however I believe that Double Attack from gear/merits/buffs/food doesn't stack with multi-hit'ting weapons such as Joyeuse and Ridill otherwise a Warriorninja using the Ridill/Joyeuse combo would be able to perform 7-hits attack rounds which to my knowledge is practically impossible; yes, it'd be allowed by the gameplay since the limit seems to be 8 hits per round, it just never happens with the aforementioned weapon combo (single wielded Joyeuse never triple attacks while Ridill never hits four times in the same round) whose cap, afaik (and I've been using this weapon combo religiously for over a year now, I would have noticed something by now) is actually 5 hits/round regardless the quantity of Double and Triple attack that you've artificially inoculated in your character.
I'll post something else once our tests are done (unfortunately neither Thief nor Dark Knight are in their 70's so I have to rely on a few friends for the next tests which slowed down things a tad), thanks for the interesting contribution tho, having to deal with an intelligent interlocutor is definately useful. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by SearainGaruda (talk • contribs).
- Off subject, but, instead of using {{unsigned}}, which is what other users place on unedited talk edits, you can sign your posts with 4 tildes (--~~~~). --CharitwoTalk 09:44, 24 June 2007 (CDT)
- Eagle 18:34, 22 July 2007 (CDT)
Could you label the x and y axis? --VZX 05:36, 24 July 2007 (CDT)
I've just repeated the test trying to recreate the same conditions observed during the previous one (same procedure and camp, identical mob's tipology and total number of rounds of swings, etc.) this time adding artificially a good deal of Double Attack chances which were increased by switching in a few items such as Brutal Earring, Warrior's Cuisses and Fighter's Calligae that supposedly bumped up my DA rate from 10% (Warrior innate bonus acquired via job trait) to somewhere between 17 and 20% (Brutal boost was confirmed being +5%, AFv1 boots bonus has always been considered circa 1-3%, while the effects of the "Double Attack +1" on AFv2 legs are still undiscovered) and the results, after 1021 rounds of hits while single wielding Ridill as War/Nin, were the following:
2212131322322232221212222131122122222112231211213222322221122322212122112211213123122323222122122222211123322122221231311332313 1132112121212222122211232121122223212122222222232122211222132123123122222321222121123122322223221222323222222211222331212222222 3112131212222223212112321321322212222232222213323112213112213221112221132122222222222233122122212222212222221221112122213221123 2211232212222322131222122122212121223221222222122222123322212233222221213223122222221222123222222222133121123222233221322221331 2221223212123322221212322221222222222121332322223113121222221122222231222223221322221222212221332221232212222123222111221211222 2223222331223223222211222113222222211322212222323131322111222132133211232212212212331222232123321231223123322112122311323222111 2122122222232121112222211222221122212222222211222232332132212121322322312222121222122223312212112112222221333122123333322322122 3222331322223222321233222211221222222222121222122221211122121331211112122323233322232221223221212221222222222221322123111221321 111222
35% single attacks, 51% double attacks, 14% triple attacks. → 25% single attacks, 60% double attacks, 15% triple attacks.
The numbers seem eloquent (I've added about 7-10% DA, the number of SA remained unchanged the number of SA slightly decreased, DA were pushed 7-8% up while the triple attacks went down by 50ish units) and pretty much in line with the "DA nerf'ing Ridill" postulated theory (and also seem matching my previous observations regarding Ridill multi-attacks proc rate behaviour in presence of a "forced" DA, generated via Warrior's Charge [Charge Talk:Warrior's Charge] - DA always overwrites Ridill natural triple attacks, evidently turning them into doubles) however I feel kinda reluctant to draw conclusions at such an early stage of this series of experiments, I'll hold on this until some more data coming from further testing will be posted either here or on BlueGartr forum.
I repeat, if someone was willing to waste some time gathering data as DRK/BST/RNG or THF (subbing anything but Warrior or Samurai) or even testing Mercurial Kris, Soboro Sukehiro or Bahamut Zaghnal, since I suspect that the various families of multi-attack'ing weapons (2x, Virtue, 2-3, etc.) follow different patterns shared among each category, it'd be incredibly helpful and would give us an opportunity to figure out in a somewhat conclusive way firstly the sword natural multi-hit distribution and in second instance if Double Attack actually decreases Ridill performances as the tests suggested.
SearainGaruda 13:57, 24 July 2007 (CDT)
adding a link that shows the gear used during each test in case anyone was curious, I had forgotten Frt. Torque in mogsafe (replaced with PCC as you can see) and used SH+1 instead of Ebody the second time. The "DM-like" earring was Ethereal in both cases (since I was soloing and single wielding).
gear.
--SearainGaruda 09:47, 28 July 2007 (CDT)
Did you measure time at all? It seems both sets of data support the idea that double attacks from job trait are attacks that would have otherwise been triple attacks with Ridill. But I'm not sure if that necessarily means (it may) that it will result in less attacks over time. It would be simple to decide once and for all though. Do the same test again twice, but measure the total amount of time required to produce those 1020 hits. The easiest way to do this would probably be on walls in Lebros Caverns, just get two people to enter with you and tell them not to do anything to the wall, just let you keep attacking it, determine the amount of time it takes to get to 1020 hits with no +Double Attack gear, then do the same thing with lots of +Double Attack gear stacked. If your hypothesis is correct, it will take considerably less time to reach the 1020th with no Double Attack gear. --∂ινιζσrτhεσry(Need help? Ask me!) 14:42, 14 August 2007 (CDT)
Basically, they were 1000+ nearly consecutive round of hits since I was solo'ing in Kuftal Tunnel on EP crabs with signet boost on (they weren't even able to touch me, I hardly ever recasted Utsusemi) and by the time a bunch were dead the others had already respawned (I wasn't using berserk, weapon skills, food or anything) so I was just switching targets, sometimes running a bit ahead and keep fighting.
Both tests took me about a hour and a half each (so I doubt I could reach such a large sample size in Lebros due to the thirty minutes time limit and I couldn't tell exactly how longer the second test lasted, I wasn't checking with a chronograph unfortunately) and I made sure not to ever go AFK or zone or change my gear while gathering data (Guivre spawned once, aggroed from miles away since I didn't want to disengage and hide somewhere and 4-shot'ted me while I was at 700'ish swings...so I erased that data and had to repeat the test from scratch the day after) anyway I'll try to reproduce the test in Excavation Duty (keeping track of time) whenever we get tired of being rewarded with Copper Rings and Tsurara from Azure Experiments and I have a few ID tags to spare, I'm kinda curious to see if the results will match, even though I think it'd be a more than likely assumption.
I was more interested in repeating the test with Fighter's Roll constantly casted upon my character first though and I think I might temporarily take DA merit upgrades up a few %'s too for testing purpose since my merits and exp are capped since a while, I have 10.9 merits stored since a while and I had already ran out of things to do with them.
It'd be great if someone else could get some data concerning the sword multi hits distribution on a neutral job meanwhile so we would have enough samples to make some sort of conclusive comparison; all I've been able to gather so far is a brief test a friend on Fairy performed on his DRK/RDM, whose results haven't been posted on this discussion page because he could only provide a sample size that was a little over 300 round of attacks, therefore too small to be considered somewhat reliable; his observations however were apparently in line with my results.
--SearainGaruda 07:31, 15 August 2007 (CDT)
Hmm, the data posted above (the two strings of 1s, 2s and 3s) and the numbers derived from them don't seem to match. I've copy&pasted the data strings into a text editor (Notepad++) and counted the number of 1s, 2s and 3s using the search function, and got different percentages than the numbers posted here.
I got (276 / 541 / 203) or (27.06% / 53.04% / 19.90%) for the first data set, the one with just +10% DA from WAR's trait, and (257 / 611 / 154) or (25.15% / 59.78% / 15.07%) for the second data set with +17% to +20% DA.
Looking at this data, I also agree that WAR's DA prevents Ridill's triple-attacks and the TA rate of the 2 data sets strongly suggest so. Ridill seems to have a frequency distribution of 30%/50%/20%.
--JKL 22:55, 6 September 2007 (CDT)
I'm checking my notes and the original files I had saved on my notebook manually and also using a different text editor (honestly I don't remember anymore which one I used back then), regardless, as you've mentioned above, the conclusion doesn't change. Thanks for pointing that out though, some data might've vanished when I copypaste'd the strings although it seems unlikely.
--SearainGaruda 06:15, 8 September 2007 (CDT)
I just checked, the strings data copypaste'd here matches with the numbers belonging the original files, I guess the error occurred when I put them into my code editor which originated slightly different %'s however the substance doesn't change even though the number of single attacks between the two testing sessions is slightly different, hinting that probably the SA's get somehow influenced too and don't remain completely unchanged as preliminarily stated.
Anyhow, whenever I get some spare time I'll repeat the test(s) with a larger sample size (following Divisor's suggestions too) so we can (hopefully) figure out the magnitude of this interaction (and I'll also fix the percentages in the OP, next time I'll count them manually...it was such a macroscopic and unexpected systematic error I didn't even bother checking twice and so didn't everyone else), until then the conclusions regarding DA/Ridill TA correlation stand pretty much correct, just the (supposedly) detrimental effects seem less severe than how they previously seemed. Bye and thanks again JKL!
--SearainGaruda 15:30, 8 September 2007 (CDT)
A few details and the percentages in my original post(s) have been fixed.
--SearainGaruda 12:57, 10 September 2007 (CDT)
What is the purpose of timing the experiment, you're just going to find that sometimes it took you longer to engage or run to a mob then others if you are basing your count on attack rounds, which won't change unless you are changing your haste% or delay by whatever means. Correct me if I'm wrong in this (You are and unfortunately you also fail at basic math --SearainGaruda 14:57, 13 October 2007 (UTC)) , but from my perspective why don't you just count up the total number of swings in each experiment which come to 1877 in the first experiment and 1938 in the second (these aren't 100% accurate since I didn't actually add them up I used the corrected percentages multiplied by 1020) which shows that even thought the triple attack rate went down the overall hits went up.
--Fishura 05:00, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
I finally got around to test the sword while 2-box'ing our Corsair mule who just recently reached Lv50:
1376 rounds of attacks (unless Notepad++ failed me again) while being under the effects of Fighter's Roll as War/Nin.
21222212232111212331212122212232322112332211222232221211122221123131223312221222232212222131112222232322112 31222131312221113221212222222222121121223122132122221212122322312211231112122222221222322212312112212222222 22132122211212212221233123222232222322V12211222112222222231233212232223222221222222232311112223212222221222 12131211112223131323322122222212122212122112323222232222222221312212312212211221211233211212222112122222223 22212222122322221221122222122322321332222232223212212121213232333122322322123222221232321233113333121122221 22312122223222231221111221231321122322132112221212322212212221112122132212223221212111121223121312212222313 22112222221232212222222212132211213211211122112311213321223311113121122222322231122221222323122211312222122 22222222323222222223211123332222111112223211211222211222223222122122222313212321121321222212131223212211222 23222332121121312223222222121221222133221231332321212222321322232121222222333121122122221123232122212222112 31221222312222222313113212212333212222112221222211212222221121111222213222322122222122212222233223211112222 32323222212232222211221221232212223222223222322323212132213131212332122122221122222222123121123223232121113 31212222312212221222312221222221322222322132132221231122111232322222213232322132122312222213122223222322221 222212222222222213122212121221112222123222122221322231222322212122311221312133222122112232321.
COR rolled:
6, 9, 8, 4, 4, 7, 7, 5, 5, 7, 6, 8, 6, 7, 8, 8, 5, 10, 8, 5, 8, 6, 8, 6, 7, 7, 5, 6;
Ridill proc rate (+23%~ DA? +18%~ - assuming the final bonus gets dwindled down due to the difference between the Corsair's and the Ridill owner's level, respectively 50 and 75), read below for additional informations - ?): → 26% single attacks, 59% double attacks, 15% triple attacks.
Don't take this for granite though.
--SearainGaruda 18:44, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
Link to the Studio Gobli info about this subject (blame babelfish for the goofy translation):
As for attack frequency occurrence ratio of リディル with 30:50:20 average 1.90 time attacks With DA probability 10% 1.91 times, with DA probability 20% 1.92 times
Except the averages, despite being satisfying from a mathematical perspective, don't quite match the results of my testing sessions. I guess We'll see.
--SearainGaruda 18:45, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm no COR obviously but I did a bit of research and found this:
It is important to note that there is a level-based penalty on Chaos Roll or Wizard's Roll when the COR is lower-level than the target:
corLVL / targetLVL x bonus total
Other rolls may also be affected by this level penalty (though Evoker's definitely is not)
I wonder how reliable this info is in light of the overall disinformation the vast majority of FFXI-related message boards are comprised of and if it applies to Fighter's Roll as well. After taking a brief look at the numbers I got on my last test it would make all kind of sense though.
Does anyone have a feedback on this matter, it'd be greatly appreciated at this point.
--SearainGaruda 11:37, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
I've been on break for a while so my mathematical approach may be flawed, but if you assume 30/50/20 as the proc rate and then adjust for double attack by multiplying your normal attack rate (ie .9) into SA and TA and adding the difference to DA you get 27/55/18 for 10% double attack and 24.9/58.5/16.6 for 17% while the numbers provide show ~27/53/20 and ~25/60/15 respectively. I haven't calculated a confidence interval or anything, but eyeball measures seem to imply 30/50/20 with warrior's double attack being calculated before Ridill's multiple attacks, assuming a successful double attack prevents the opportunity for multiple attacks occuring, can not be rejected based on the stats we have available.
Sorry for the slight rambling/lack of grammar in my post, brain's pretty foggy today. Anyway, under my hypothesis double attack would still be increasing the number of swings per round by .007 rather than the seemingly implied thought that Double Attack "nerfs" Ridill I've seen previously. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not a statistician, just someone who's had stats classes and usually has a good memory for math. --Syeria 19:57, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
I just happened to be looking at the Ridill and saw all this data, but i think there is one thing you're forgetting about warrior, WAR's double attack (with the exception of Justice Sword) does not stack with moves on weapons. Therefore 10% of the single hits (if the WAR's DA was base) will be converted into double attacks.--BioShark 12:14, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
- Double Attack also stacks with the multi-hit on Mercurial Sword, and on the Amoods (Amood, Dark Amood, Wootz Amood). :P --Kyrie 02:02, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
Old post, but commenting on Searain's COR test. Yes, a COR < 75 buffing a WAR75 should result in a nerfed Fighter's Roll effect. But more importantly, the roll values are all over the place, so I'm not really sure what that test was out to prove. You could easily produce a constant and persistent Fighter's Roll value of 1, though (wiki claims this to be 8% DA on a WAR). It would require a COR75 with fully merited Snake Eye and at least one merit in Winning Streak (which is a fairly common meriting strategy, so it should be "easy" to find such a COR).
- COR uses Snake Eye followed by Fighter's Roll, giving WAR a value of 1
- COR runs out of range of WAR and gives herself two junk rolls, to cycle Fighter's off herself.
- Aforementioned merits will allow Snake Eye recast to come back up before Fighter's wears off the WAR
- Repeat
--Pav Feira 19:58, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
