Talk:Summoner

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Merit Guide

High level summoners, please help out the other summoners who want to excel at the job by making a merit guide or suggested merits for certain playing styles. Let's make the summoner community stronger!

I'm not a guide making type of person, but from what I'm aware of, the best idea is to choose 2 of the merit blood pacts, one that can magic burst the Light Skillchain, and one that can Magic Burst the Darkness chain, and put 5/5 in there. Then Either do 5/5 in Avatar Physical Acc/Att or Magical, based on what you intend to do. With 5/5 in magical acc/att as well as 5/5 in one of the blood pacts, it quite easily surpasses 1k damage. SMN merits are all up to preference. I personally prefer stronger physical pacts with slightly weaker magical pacts. Of course, 8/8 MP merits is a good idea, unless you are a taru. There aren't many other merits that benefit summoner. As we don't melee, staff merits aren't very useful, unless you never intend to level a melee job. Myzou 07:04, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

My personal preference is if you intend to fully merrit Summoning Skill, dont waste slots on Avatar Accuracy and magic accuracy, because Summoning skill grants these. Concentrate instead on Avatar Attack and Magic attack.--MasterMalichi 10:37, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

I put at least one merit point in each of the Group 2 Bloodpacts, maximum for Garuda's Wind Blade, reason being Wind Blade was the most useful versus Kirin and of all the avatars, Garuda tended to be the one I used most for DD. (I so wish we could merit Netherblast somehow though) I have to disagree slightly with MasterMalichi on putting merits in Avatar Physical/Magical Accuracy, even with high (say, 330 and up) Summoning Skill, the multi-hit Bloodpacts still do miss partially or altogether and reducing the chances of a miss seems more worthwhile to me than similarly increasing the damage done by the Bloodpact. Mind you, I have not done extensive testing (about a few hundred runs per Prime Avatar.. but ONLY kept records on these)but going from 5/5 on Physical Accuracy to my current 2/5 cut my average damage by 10-15% with Predator Claws. I seem to have 'restored' this with the new body armor, courtesy of 'A Crystalline Prophecy' so I'm leaving things as they are (currently 2 merits in each Group 1)

Assuming you have unlimited merits to spare [i.e. have a BRD at level 75 ...) you may give things a try. In the past I have done a few things like:

Maximum Elemental Perp Cost. Extremely useful for Alliance healing with Light Spirit until this fell into general disuse about two years ago. Now it's just for the Shell and Protect spells when I solo Leviathan or Garuda (as SMN/BLM so I can Warp home faster) in which case my current 2 merits in it are mostly worthless. If only Light Spirit was more altruistic in Campaign situations.

Maximum Physical Accuracy. This really helps out Bloodpacts that are multi-hit in nature [like Predator Claws], not so much for Mountain Buster. 5/5 Predator Claws ~ 900 - 975, my current 2/5 doing about 850 - 915. My usual test mobs are the Flamingoes in Sky. I also seem to get more 1k+ results (which could just mean I was close to 1000 damage anyway) Seems to be that 5/5 versus 0/5 is the different between having no misses and one miss.

Maximum Magical Accuracy. Mainly helps out the Group 2 Bloodpacts. Essentially, the greater your base damage of the Bloodpact, the more you will benefit from this. I seriously could not tell the difference from 5/5 to 2/5 without consulting a spreadsheet. It's there, it's not significant.

Maximum Physical Attack. You do not seem to see much impact until you get a Mountain Buster doing near 5k damage to a Sprinkler. Then again, you do no see damage like that often neither. The main benefit seems to be the 'wow' factor when you are in a party.

Maximum Magical Attack. This actually works well if you are using a Bloodpact that does not miss much, which describes most of our magical Bloodpacts.

Based on my limited experience, I chose the Physical Accuracy & Magical Attack (also comes with Magical Accuracy) augments for my ACP body armor. i.e. I gave up 'free' Fenrir for this. YMMV.

For the Group 2s? Well I do 'avatar runs' fairly often and even before the slight upgrade from the recent update, I used these over the Tier 4 spells so I am a little biased towards getting them all.

Asphe 09:05, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Job Description.

Am I the only one who doesn't like that it mentions Summoner basically being a healer. While I do not disagree we are more than capable of healing a group (However boring and hard at times it can be) I do not agree it should be listed as "We basically just heal." Maybe the wording could be changed slightly? I will not edit it as of now but just my two gil --21:47, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Summoner is not a healer. It just gets forced to heal, IF it even gets a PT of any sort. SMN is pretty much the Pet Mage Solo EXP Job, whereas BST is petty much the Pet Melee Solo EXP job. I think SE designed SMN to be mostly a soloer of the mage class. Especially considering how most people end up soloing to 75 on this job, unless they are really lucky, or will go low enough to heal-only. Blood Pacts cost so much MP that a SMN can't really heal AND buff the PT/damage a mob without have to take rests every few fights. --Aledacia^Talk 09:03, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Exactly what I am saying, it just seems that the discription is saying that summoner are just healers. But maybe it's just me. I'm well aware Summoner is not a healer. The last part I am not sure of, as a Galka Summoner at level 40, I was quite capable of uding Blood Pacts, keeping an avatar out and healing and getting my MP back in time next pull arrived. Off topic but it remains valid, in any case I'm not fond of the discription on this page is all something along the lines of "Summoner is quite a capable healer but has much to bring to a party in terms of it's Blood Pacts buffs, damage and debuff's" may sound a bit better. --DwightValentine 23:47, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Except you cannot say Summoner is a capable healer without also saying Black Mage is a capable healer. While the player base may see those two jobs differently in a party context, the functionality is the same; they both are reliant on their subjobs in order to heal. (Yes, Summoner gets blood pacts that can restore HP, but their cost and delay makes them a non-issue for the role of main healer.)

I suggest we cut player prejudice at the stem for this, and list only what Summoners do, without listing additional situations that are based on subjob and are not in fact Summoner-specific. --Taeria Saethori 00:13, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that does sound like a good idea to me and kind of what I was trying to get at, as you say, the Black Mage page does not have "Black mages heal with their subjob". Maybe I was no wording it well. --DwightValentine 18:05, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

...All talk, no action, eh? A Summoner with an Avatar has dignity, a Summoner Cure II'ing the tank that aggro'd 4 Pugils in Qufim is, to put it bluntly, a whore. --Taruzard 22:56, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

I and the rest of MagesGuild on Remora also take offense to this page labeling summoners as gimpy heal whores. The job may not lend itself to its full power in a regular party, but in a purpose built party (ex: rdm/brd and any number of summoners) or a summoner only party, they are gods of kicking tail. I stand behind Taeria and DwightValentine in saying that the description is prejudiced and should be changed to reflect what the job does rather than what the "typical" party demands of them. -- Takophiliac 21:07, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

/cheer --Taruzard 03:25, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Imma just... change it now.. get rid of the "Heal" thing.. Hell if you guys want to spend the rest of your days healing when you have the power of 9 avatars in your hands by all means, whenever someone asks me to party "Main Heal, do you have it?" I just go along with it till they tell me their <pos> I solo all their mobs.. Or go sub /WAR

Fun times.. --Taruzard 14:11, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

A summoner who has all the terrestrial avatars is a healer, boosts defense, and lays down heavy fire on mobs. They can add an awful lot to a party.--McGoonagle 10:39, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

A Summoner who has all the avatars put together can almost be whatever you want/need, yeah a SMN can heal, but thats not the only thing they can do, they can buff, DD, solo, subheal, theres so much a SMN can actually do, people jus need to realise that /whm is for self heals onry, half the people who are like "SMN Yuo hael pl0x!" Prolly havent even played the damn job. --Taruzard 23:16, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

You guys are hilarious. SMN on its own is a fairly awful job, really. The reason we end up healing in parties is because our abilities are so ridiculously unwieldy as to be nearly useless in party situations. Yes, in a party situation, most of the time the Summoner's most effective role pre-70 is healing... though of course, as I tell everyone who expects me to "main" heal, Cure 3 only goes so far. Pre-70 what else can SMN really bring to a party though? Damage? Don't make me laugh... Tagrineth 15:20, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Guess you've never saved a party with a blood pact or one-shotted a NM with your 2-hr. Summoners can do a lot of damage (hitting for 300 damage at lvl 35), and they can also buff pts in ways that WHMs and RDMs can't. The challenges for the SMN are swift selection of the avatar, role selection, and MP management. Just letting Carby pop away at things when you could be putting shadows on the melees, adding defensive abilities, doing Curaga without getting hate, or putting En- effects on weapons is not really putting your back into the job.--McGoonagle 09:35, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

300 at level 35 means you're either not fighting a normal party xp mob or you got super lucky with full hits and possibly a crit on Double Punch, which usually ends up burning a bunch of MP for not even three digit damage. If you're using it consistently in a party, on average you're wasting your MP and time spent casting the avatar. One-shotting an NM with Astral Flow obviously doesn't have anything at all to do with party situations, don't know why you brought that up. And as a matter of fact, Spring Water and Healing Ruby II are pretty much the only BPs I use in a party pre-70, since, you know, they help HEAL, which was my whole point. Oh and en-effects? You mean Rolling Thunder? Adding single-digit damage to a bunch of probably two-handed melee for 60 seconds isn't worth basically dedicating your Ward timer and 50 MP to. SMN has severe issues in a party setting, that's all I'm sayin'. Healing in some capacity is pretty much the main thing we can offer without more or less leeching. (adding as a post-note: and does anyone seriously have carby melee party xp mobs? they should probably take a trip back to their mog house and {Job Change})Tagrineth 14:51, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

By all means, continue to play the job how you would prefer to. But we're not trying to impose our style of playing upon you, so do not try to impose yours upon us.

All sides of the discussion are true. A summoner can be powerful support, an effective damage dealer, and, in a crunch, also use their MP to cast cure spells. What you do depends, as always, on the situation at hand. Curing is obviously going to be useful if you're the senior mage in a party, but if a white mage is doing all the curing and you're just sitting down twiddling your thumbs, then you're not doing yourself or the party any good. --Taeria Saethori 20:05, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

But see, to me Summoner shouldn't even be in the same party as a White Mage at most level ranges, the summoner becomes practically deadweight most of the time for the very reason you just pointed out.Tagrineth 10:31, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

If you really think Summoner is so weak, what are you doing with it? I level'ed Summoner to 75 bringing alot to the party, and Healing wasnt even the laugh of the party. Summoner should be able to Party with at least one other healer no matter what. None of this crap that it shouldn't even be in the same party as a whm. Every Party should have a Main healer and a Sub healer as well. Summoners can very well DD in a normal EXP Party. SMN's have that much MP for a reason - using it shouldn't be looked down upon when using a BP >.>.

SMN's do have the capability to Heal MP fairly quickly - maybe not right at first because it needs a kick start, but I've been able to Buff and DD and be a good sub healer. SMN should Never be main healer and always be in a pt with a WHM or RDM. SMN CAN be a DD when a pt needs it to be. Pre-70 is hard like you said... but doesnt make it a job that can't bring anything to a party. Cure-Whoreing + Summoner = No Effing Thanks. If you couldn't do very much before level 70 - then idk what kind of SMN you were :X SMN isn't a dead weight unless parties make it deadweight. A good tank is what should be looked at... not putting emphasis on curing a not-that-great tank. The tank should be able to withstand enough damage and keep hate well enough so that there shouldn't have to be THAT much healing from a SMN to begin with. And with a Good main healer that ISN'T a SMN - the summoner doesn't have so much to do BUT DD and Buff. Therefore I recant my last statement. SMN is NEVER deadweight in a pt. there's always Buffs to be made and Damage to be done. And you said they made you laugh... Kennyxenph 17:32, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

^^^ /cheer Kenny! I agree, SMN can be a DD, a Buff, and tbh shouldnt really be considered a main heal, I mean, Cure III isnt going to helkp out much in later levels, when a RDM or WHM can cast Cure IV or Cure! SMN make great buffers, I mean seriously who else but a SCH can cast AoE Stoneskin, Haste, Blink, Phalanx etc. on the whole party? And even SCH cant do that until level 50~ If you really thing being deadweight is an issue, if you have a strong PLD, and a strong WHM and you really dont need to be healing at all, sub BLM, might look a bit lame at first but cmon, it has its uses! During your time between Blood Pact: Rage/Ward, Summon Carbuncle for a quick heal every now and then, or maybe Poison Nails/Meteorite if you need some Skill ups, and act as a gimp blm! Your party may not like it at first but seriously, if your added to a party with a WHM/RDM/SCH, the chances are your gunna be the only mage, and if the Main heal is pretty tight at their job, sub BLM and use Carby for a Healing Ruby if things DO go bad --Taruzard 14:57, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Honestly... You guys are really too much if you think SMN is such an amazing and versatile job, capable of doing so many things with high efficiency. Their damage is, at best, weak, on anything higher than T. They're used on HNMs sometimes to do damage without giving the mob TP or much TP, but that doesn't mean crap for EXP. Their buffs are subpar when compared to anything another job capable of buffing can do. Earth Ward is a very weak stoneskin, Noctoshield is a very unimpressive Phalanx(it was good at release, but now we have Phalanx II and Accession Phalanx...) Aerial Armor is the stronger Blink compared to other Blinkgas outside of Diffusion Zephyr Mantle...but it's Blink. Not Utsusemi, blink. That fault alone bring it to a point of being nigh useless. Rolling Thunder is an extremely laughable Enthunder, no more even needs to be said. The stat buffs from Howl/Growl are okay, but they are in no way a large buff at all. Healing Ruby II is nice due to the hate-free highish HP restoring Curaga. Spring Water is nice, situationally, after certain AoE debuffs that it can get rid of. Now the damage. I don't even know why I have to go into this, because it's completely clear that none of the people supporting SMN's "potential" have any real DD job leveled... Pre-70, it's not worth mentioning. I'm not even going into it, because it's just completely dreadful. Post-70, sure, if you land all the hits of Predator Claws or the like it can do some pretty good spike damage. ...But SMN has no form of DoT, meaning any job designed to DD will be able to completely decimate a SMN damage-wise. You can be biased and turn a blind eye to the truth, or you can realize that SMN is very flawed in an EXP setting. I leveled SMN to 75, and I got both kinds of parties, as in with, or without another healer. I was able to realize that, in parties where I wasn't main healing, I was just dead weight. No way around it, not my fault for anything other than job's faults. This isn't bias, it isn't hate or anything, it's the honest facts of this matter. All in all, I'll end with just saying that some SMNs need to swallow their pride and just realize that they leveled and or leveling a job that is deadweight in a good deal of situations, most notably EXP, where they SHOULD be relegated to the role of a healer, as it's the only thing they can do with any efficieny in that setting. Not that anything I say is going to dissuade a fanatic obsession with overrating because it's their main or whatever... But it's worth throwing out there for anyone with enough sense to listen to reason, instead of bias. loltextwall--Nalazis 04:11, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Why does "reasoning" have to be in what your terms mean on SMN? I'm no prideful person.... and i have leveled DD jobs >.>

Ok... its not the top notch DD - because its mage... but it's still a DD. What terms are you baseing it to be a crappy DD for anyway? Buffs are buffs... and can be expended fairly quickly at the will of the SMN. As i said before... there is always buffs to be made... and damage to be done. Sch's can only AoE buff so many times... We can rest for MP alot quicker then other jobs... we DO have potential... I'll admit my word doesnt have to be taken by law... but neither does yours.... you see it weak... i saw it as a pretty nice job.... if you don't like the way i pronounce the good will of a smn... well... you'll have to deal with it - as i'll have to deal with the way you denounce it's abilities. We're gonna have people that see it either one or the other... and i see it as a more well thought our job... though SE really needs to fix other stuff about it too.... but its not the horrible job people make it out to be Kennyxenph 04:33, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

You're free to accept or reject it, but what I stated is the truth in this matter. I base "DD" in a job capable of doing a respectable amount of DoT(damage over time since apparently you can't understand that). SMN is incapable of doing even remotely respectable DoT. If buffs are buffs, why not have BRDs use Fire Carol in merit parties to cut back on the amount of damage that will be taken by Firespit sometimes? Because it's ineffecient, right? Exactly. Even if they help a trite amount, buffs are not held in the same value. Stronger, more useful buffs are better than weaker ones with minor to no/little situational use. SCH can only AoE buff so many times? Please research your facts before making outrageous assumptions. SCH is less limited than SMN in the amount of buffs they're able to use at any given time. I'm not denouncing anything's ability, and you need to wake up and accept that it's extremely flawed to the point that it has nothing that only it can do with high effectiveness, outside of having an easily disposable pet. I might add that I'm the only one that actually backed my argument up with facts, all you did was basically say "no u"--Nalazis 04:45, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

what Facts have you brought up? comparing it to other jobs? that doesnt seem fair... you're flair other jobs' job abilities in the SMN's face. The Buffs are jsut about equal to any other buff - idk where you got YOUR facts - seeing as you can't figure where i got mine >.>. And Sch can only go so unlimited with AOE'ing AFTER attaining higher levels - so why don't you go research yourself first.

Summoners have their new abilites as they get high they can be able to do more DD and a debuff with Fenrir here and there and a few other stuff with every other avatar. All you are doing is discouraging people from leveling a job that they will find useful/useless themselves on their own terms. stop telling us to wake up and smell the uselessness in smn because it seems you haven't done much with your smn to boot. and if you have... well... than idk what you call hard work on a job. We are capable of a few things... we can even solo something such as bombs. thats a specialty... and bst and pup can solo their own ways... smn can too. people blow pup out of the water saying lolpup all the time... and all you are saying is lolsmn.

so what facts were you supporting again? all i heard was "ummmzz... whats an avatar?" Kennyxenph 05:00, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Butthurt fanatics are funny. No. Just no. Your buffs are equal to...what...no. You're not worth my time, and you're a lost cause, I only hope I can steer some other people in the right path of not having some exaggerated expectations of the job. I'm sure there are at least a few sensible people like Tagrineth, and a few friends of mine, who can look past the fanboyism of this job and realize the plethora of flaws. Also, I'd appreciate it if you'd stop comparing apples to oranges, and try not to look like such an idiot in front of anyone who will be reading this page. Just some advice for your own benefit. I'm done responding to you, after you basically started crying like a baby because someone called you on your crap.--Nalazis 05:08, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

lulz you... i'm crying like a little baby right. Compairing apples to oranges is what you've been doing mr.hardcore. You're the one compairing SMN to the other jobs, you're the one who's throwing SMN out compareing it to some DD and IS A DD!!. Summoner doesn't need to be a STRONG DD because it has other capabilities. I'm happy to not be worth you time because you're time seems to be wasting away on a potty with whatever your playing FFXI on and you don't move an inch. SMN being able to do a variety of things makes it do something somewhere! not specified to some DD job only or just BUFF job only. I'm glad you and your friends are "smart" and whoever would throw this job down. Oh wait.... WAHHHHHH STOP TELLING ME SMN IS BAD WHAHAHAHHHHAHHHHAH I'm CRYING.

.... all your doing is saying i'm doing whatever the heck you were doing... comparing - FYI i wasnt! you were. Come on... throw it back at me again. that i'm doing something stupid by defending a job i did damn well leveling - while you were a poor SMN. You stop sticking your head in the clouds acting like a god - and stick it where I could care less. You're not law here dude - theres nothing to convince anyone anything. Once you realize no one's really gonna give a crap what you or i say - if someone has no interest in the job they wouldn't be on the SMN page.... if they want to level it... then they would be here. and i'm here to tell them what a smn can do. and didn't i JUST agree that smn had some flaws? I think i did.... but that doesnt make it trash... other wise NO ONE WOULD BE LEVELING IT! You're not worth my time... but I will come back with to recant your putdowns because there's no need for it. and any upcoming SMN doesn't need to hear it.Kennyxenph 05:22, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I implore any new SMNs to not follow this guy's example. Don't level the job if you're looking to DD or buff. Play to your strengths. You have high MP, the most effective use of it is curing, with a few buffs here and there when they help. If you level SMN, you should be expected to cure. Please keep this in mind before you level the job, don't become like many of these SMNs that don't even know game mechanics.--Nalazis 05:34, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

So much for not being worth your time... and being able to admit i have some points you haven't noted. Truly I do apologize for being Rude... but I don't take back anything i said.... You wanna Trash SMN.... go do it on the DD page... or whatever SMN's are NOT good at.... Nice job being a Role Model.... I'll be sure to follow you're every move >.>... lulz!!! hahaha (oh wait... wah wah wah)Kennyxenph 05:40, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Ok, let me start this off with the fact that I don't have SMN leveled much so you can take what I have to say with a grain of salt or however you please.

• SMN is not the BEST DD. SMN is not the BEST buffer. SMN is not the BEST healer. But the fact that it can do ALL of those decently enough and that's the point of the job.

• How can you compare SMN to other DD as, say, SAM? That, my friend, is comparing Apples to Oranges. Of course SMN is not going to be on par with SAM or DRG or whatever in terms of DD. Those jobs were MADE to be DD. Hasso, Meditate, Sekkanoki, Jump, Attack Bonus, Accuracy Bonus, Angon; all of these are abilities and traits that help in the DD department. That is their specialty. SMN's specialty is NOT DD. That much is true. But in no way can you compare SMN to other DD jobs and by that comparison say that SMN's have no DD capability.

• RDM and SCH are specialists in the buffing department. That is one of the main aspects of their job. Is SMN the best buffer? No. It is true that SMN buffs are not as strong as other full fledged buffers. Does that mean they cannot and should not buff? No, in my opinion, they should buff as often as possible. Would you rather have that weaker stoneskin than no stoneskin at all? It might not be much, but that small amount of damage you didn't take will save the healer some MP and make their job more efficient in the long run. SMN is not the BEST buffer, but they CAN and SHOULD buff when given the opportunity.

• SMN as main heal? Really? If that is how the job was intended to be played, don't you think the creators of the game would have given SMN a more direct way of healing other than Carbuncle and subbing a healing job? SMN is only a decent healer because they sub the MAIN HEALING JOB. Why don't you try main healing as SMN/BRD? Don't think that's going to go over too well. SMN can heal yes because they have a lot of MP. But if they were INTENDED to heal, why wouldn't they receive native Healing Magic Skill or native Cure spells at least? Sure Carbuncle can heal, but you have to wait for the BP timer to be up. Far from main healing capability as I see it. Can they main heal? Probably. Should they be FORCED to main heal JUST due to the fact they have a lot of MP and be FORCED to sub WHM or maybe RDM? Definitely not. They CAN heal, doesn't mean that's what they were MADE for.

• SMN, as I see it, is similar to DNC in terms of party role. Can DNC be the best DD? No. But can they be decent? Well with being able to buff up their WS and open themselves up for self SC, yes they can excel at DDing. Can they be the best buffer/debuffer? No. But they can EXTREMELY help out the party with steps and flourishes. Can they be the best healer? Well I personally think we can kick ass healing, but any full blown healing job can outdo any DNC in the healing department. So then by that are you saying that DNC is a worthless and flawed job? If so then let's continue this argument on the DNC page. All in all, I think there can be a few adjustments to be made on SMN yes. But do I think that SMN should be forced into main healing roles? That is a big no. SMN is in a league of its own job wise. It can excel at DD, buffing, and healing, depending on what the party needs. Need a quick stoneskin because the mob is getting lower HP and we know it uses a power AOE attack and that little bit of damage mitigation will help? No problem. WHM running low on MP and the tank needs a cure? Here ya go. Almost killed this mob but the party is low too? Toss in a Rage and finish it off. SMN can be the BEST at any role it needs to perform at a moments notice. What if your party lacks a buffer? Well in that situation, since you don't have anyone else, SMN is the best buffer you have.

• If you have such a big problem with SMN, as Kenny said, wtf have you been doing with it then? You don't like the job? Fine! That's your problem your opinion. But don't come on here and try to tell every current and newcoming SMN that the only purpose this job has is to heal. Don't try to force your views of the job on others because honestly, this is the internet. If you really think that forcing your ideas on people will make you better, you have a lot to learn about the real world. Ohh, and take my advice here, calling people "idiot" and "baby" online doesn't make you cool. All that does is make you look like the "idiot" and/or "baby." Learn some self respect, accept the fact that others are not going to have the same mindset as you, and get over it.

I'll repeat what I said in the beginning, I've not leveled SMN much at all so you can take what I've said to heart or not, but I'm saying this from an outsider's perspective, not from a "fanboy" or "hater"'s perspective. I've seen what SMN can do, I've seen what SMN can't do. There is so much more to SMN than just healing. Thanks and sorry for the Wall-'O-Text. --Yamoto 07:02, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm with Yamoto on this one. SMN is a great all rounder, and can easily make up for any lacking in a party setup. Personally, how you can say SMN are basically healers is beyond me, anyone that can output 2,245dmg on an EP (personal record with Garuda) can happily drop into the DD class. On top of that, if you happen to be using Garuda for DD, you have the option of hastega for your pt members, or if something goes wrong use the blink option to buy some of your guys a little time. I would say it is one of the most versatile jobs in FFXI, and that you are wrong. --User:Lexifir

You're truly hopeless, and I really do pity you. Okay, let's lay out the facts. Let's list DDs, or jobs capable of dealing decent damage. WAR, MNK, THF, DRK, BST, RNG, SAM, DRG, BLU, PUP. And now jobs that aren't even designed to DD, but can do it either passably or very well. NIN, COR, PLD(if geared to deal damage). If you think a SMN could even do HALF of a decently even AH geared one of these jobs, assuming they have all the essentials and don't play stupidly, as well as assuming the SMN is ONLY DDing, you're fooling yourself. And no one's going to invite someone that's going to parse maybe 5-8% in a four DD party, to do damage. Now for buffer jobs: BRD, COR. There's no need to even go into it. SMN can not, under any circumstances, buff better than these jobs, or even come anywhere close. Now let's go further down the scale, with Scholar's unique buffs. Everything a SCH can do, with the exception of Blink, they do better and more efficiently than SMN. Costs less MP, takes less time and has a greater effect. RDM and WHM aren't worth mentioning, because all they have for buffs are Haste and haste/refresh(which, granted, is far more valuable than anything SMN can bring to the table.) Sure, SMN has hastega. Full strength, with terribly laughable duration. And I might add, that COR, as well as SCH, will be able to do more damage to any EXP mob over the course of a party than SMN can, while still being able to buff better. So what now? We've covered buffs and we've covered damage, and discovered that SMN is about a quarter as good at these than other jobs...what now... Oh yes, healing. Sure, SMN is a subpar healer. But they can fit the role. It's the only role they do even fit, actually. With the highest base MP, and being one of the only two jobs with innate auto-refresh(the other of which having the smallest MP pool and being a tank anyway). So, that about sums it up. I've backed everything up with facts, even against your cries of stupidity and bias. Not that you'll listen. You're like one of those domaru SAMs... No matter what anyone says, you'll take it and respond with "no u" or "it's my $12.95 I'll play like I want." And one more thing. Your damage against an EP mob means nothing. THF/RNG can do a 2k Slug Shot to an EP mob, that must totally make THF/RNG a top tier DD and all THFs should sub it, right? Wrong. In an EXP setting, how much you can do to an EP, or how well you can hit it, does not mean anything at all. That's all. In before the butthurt.--Nalazis 16:40, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Do you even read those arguments others have had against you? I said, and I quote, "SMN is not the BEST DD. SMN is not the BEST buffer." I, and others, have said outright, no, SMN will not be on par and parse as high as other DD. Why? Because they're not PURE DD jobs. I'll again quote myself "Of course SMN is not going to be on par with SAM or DRG or whatever in terms of DD." And I'm sorry, but whatever that SMN that parsed 5-8% (if that's even an actual fact) they were not focusing on DDing. I've seen SMN in party do well around 30% of the damage when they were focusing on that aspect. Are there better DD's out there? Of course. But that does not mean SMN cannot DD at all. You're the only one here comparing SMN to other DD jobs and saying "no u" just because they don't parse as high as others. Um...DUH! Same thing goes for the buffers. Again, I quote "Is SMN the best buffer? No. It is true that SMN buffs are not as strong as other full fledged buffers." I'm blatantly stating the fact that they are NOT as good as other jobs. So open your eyes, stifle your stubbornness, and see that I'm not saying "no u" as you are.

SMN were not meant to be the BEST at any of those activities. Do I need to repeat it again? SMN ARE NOT THE BEST DD OR BUFFERS, PERIOD. Can you understand that? I KNOW SMN is not the best. But, unlike you, I've backed up my arguments without comparing it to other jobs and saying "well it doesn't parse as high as this job or that job and its buffs suck so the job in a whole is worthless." WAR, MNK, THF, DRK, BST, RNG, SAM, DRG, BLU, PUP, NIN, COR, PLD > SMN in DD terms, yes. BRD, COR, RDM, SCH > SMN in buffing terms, yes. But WHM, RDM > SMN in healing terms. Last thing, SMN > nothing in any other terms. Does that make sense? Or do I need to elaborate more on what that means? You say we are the hopeless ones, well In my eyes, you, my friend, are the hopeless one.

And again with the "stupidity" comments. Really? Is that necessary? This is a discussion page for a, what was that word? Ohh yea, a GAME. There are going to be people who will say they will play it how they want it. In any case, it is not your place, nor do you have the authority to tell people how a job is SUPPOSED to be played. Unlike you, we are telling people how a job CAN be played, what the possibilities are, and how they can further their abilities in parties. Not saying "no u, u can onry heal!" This is a place for people to learn more about their job. You are not giving them the opportunity to do that. Please stop with YOUR bias and controlling attitude and let people express their views on a job how they will. You've already expressed your views, all I'm doing now is trying to protect those who you've insulted and give MY reasons why the job can be played differently other than just healing. Why don't you learn to accept others' views of certain things and move on? And by the way, being rude online doesn't make you seem powerful. Or have I said that already? --Yamoto 19:22, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Omg Nalazis.... yet again you are compareing SMN other jobs.... stop... I bet you anything you're summoning magic isn't even capped = FYI... that strengthens the buffs as well as Make the duration Longer. and dont you try to lie and say it's capped... because if it was - we wouldnt even be here. I am 8 skill under cap. and my buffs last long enough that i can do so many other BP's. You told me to stop compareing it to other jobs... which i havent been at all and it's all you've been doing. you're blatantly stating "facts" based off another job. Seriously.... get off this page while you still have some dignity in your bathroom/kitchen/gameroom thing you never leave. -_- you so think you're hardcore. and i laugh in your face. You said i'm not worth your time and here are two more people that back me up... hmm.... i wonder what that means? i think it means just stfu and trash smn on another page - no one needs to hear it.Kennyxenph 21:38, 20 May 2009 (UTC)